| Author | Topic |
|---|
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
LPG injection
|
Mon, 03 October 2005 07:58
|
 |
A friend came up with this idea not too long ago and its really starting to grow on me. LPG injection! Instead of heating it into a gaseous form and using a carb why not just inject it as a gas. He came to a conclusion that to inject it you would need methonal injectors to handle the much colder temperature.
But the only benifits of this would mainly be gained on a forced induction vehicle where the rapid cooling effect of the LPG when it expands in the cylinder and the high octane which would allow for mamoth boost.
What does everyone else think about this?
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Mon, 03 October 2005 08:24
|
|
you mean inject it as a liquid?
LPG gaseous injectors are great. a freind is trying the Keihin 100kw per injectors ones soon.
as for liquid injection.. not so easy. i know people are trying it, but there are pressure/temp issues..
methanol injectors just have different seals that are not affected by the alcohol.
for liquid LPG injection, icing could be a real issue (even normal convertors ice up)
cold intake temps and high octane are useful for any car...
it coulds good.. just tell him to by the Keihin injectors/convertors and try them for me 
|
|
|
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Mon, 03 October 2005 08:42
|
|
yeah injecting it as a liquid. Iceing i guess would be the biggist issue. Even on all the fuel lines etc.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Mon, 03 October 2005 14:28
|
|
ADCO Performance Racing are developing an Injected LPG system to debut on my soarer around december...
112 octane pump fuel for 50 cents per litre 
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Mon, 03 October 2005 23:58
|
|
well ive been misinformed...
im sure there is a 112 RON form of LPG available, ill do some more research and get back
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Mon, 03 October 2005 23:59
|
|
| MR 1JZ wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 07:58 |
well ive been misinformed...
im sure there is a 112 RON form of LPG available, ill do some more research and get back
|
LPG *used* to be higher before they dumbed it down. Still, the uber coldness and 100 octane can't hurt.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 00:32
|
|
The stuff you're talking about is Propane, which does have very high octane rating. LPG is a mix of propane and butane. Butane is cheap (hence its use in automotive LPG) but has much lower RON. Unfortunately you just can't buy propane at a servo, so it's not practical as an automotive fuel for 99% of people. If you want to be loading BBQ cylinders into your boot all the time, that's your choice. 
Also, you'd be nuts not to use an intercooler. The difference in lag will be approximately one poofteenth of a second. Compare the CFM rating of your turbo to the volume of your intercooler to get an idea of the difference it will make.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 00:54
|
|
|
I have access to propane through a mates vineyard as he gets deliverys of the stuff in the gigantic 1000 litre tanks, it works out to about 40 cents a litre for pure propane too.
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 01:23
|
|
Supa gas sell propane straight from the pump, so you can get it there. But your right, BBQ gas is higher octane than Auto LPG, and the octane rating of the stuff out of the pump at your common petrol station is pure shite.....
Also, you guys get all excited about the cooling, take it from me.. There is NO cooling effect once it's been converted to gas. Sure when you pull it from liquid to gass in the converters there's HEAPS of cooling going on, but the gas when it get's mixed in the carbi (or injectors if you wish) does sweet FA.... I know, I have checked......
So as it stands, the stuff out the pump really has stuff all benefit over petrol, other than the fact that it's supa cheapa....
But, go get yourself some cheap propane, and THEN your onto a good thing.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 01:35
|
|
| stradlater wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 10:53 |
Also, you guys get all excited about the cooling, take it from me.. There is NO cooling effect once it's been converted to gas. Sure when you pull it from liquid to gass in the converters there's HEAPS of cooling going on, but the gas when it get's mixed in the carbi (or injectors if you wish) does sweet FA.... I know, I have checked......
|
but what if...
the LPG is kept as a liquid all the way into the cylinders 
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:03
|
|
Hmmmm.....
LPG.....
There is no actual disadvantages of using it.... on a performance car compared to regular unleaded fuel? Well in performance wise, I know that it would cost to convert.
And does 1ltr of lpg give u around the same milage as 1ltr of regular fuel?
And can you just fill it up with propane or bbq gas and it would run on that without any changes to the system?
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:05
|
|
| no_tofu_speed wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:03 |
Hmmmm.....
LPG.....
There is no actual disadvantages of using it.... on a performance car compared to regular unleaded fuel? Well in performance wise, I know that it would cost to convert.
And does 1ltr of lpg give u around the same milage as 1ltr of regular fuel?
And can you just fill it up with propane or bbq gas and it would run on that without any changes to the system?
|
Worse fuel economy yes
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:05
|
|
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:05 |
| no_tofu_speed wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:03 |
Hmmmm.....
LPG.....
There is no actual disadvantages of using it.... on a performance car compared to regular unleaded fuel? Well in performance wise, I know that it would cost to convert.
And does 1ltr of lpg give u around the same milage as 1ltr of regular fuel?
And can you just fill it up with propane or bbq gas and it would run on that without any changes to the system?
|
Worse fuel economy yes
|
Based on?
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:12
|
|
|
Have a look at factory quotes for the LPQ commodores and falcon's its about 2-5L per 100kms more for LPQ than petrol.
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:13
|
|
I'd like to argue the fuel economy point. I know there's been much debate on it, and that usually people say that LPG has worse fuel economy, but I tell ya, I get surprisingly good economy even relative to my mates petrol 1g celicas.
Ah, yes, you can run the bbq gas propane straight into it without changing the setup, all it basically means is that you could probably run a bit more ignition timing. It'd be like putting a decent whack of octane booster in normal petrol.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:23
|
|
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:12 |
Have a look at factory quotes for the LPQ commodores and falcon's its about 2-5L per 100kms more for LPQ than petrol.
|
and are they running closed loop?
LPG mixes much better with air than petrol... gas/gas vs gas/liquid.
LPG can run leaner safely, and at times is better to run lean than run rich...
for the crap systems they have on commonwhores, they get 2-5L more.... compared to the 12-15L of petrol they use anyway...(which is also partially due to the "safe" spark maps they use)
now put in a good closed loop system or gas injection and you will have even better fuel usage...
economy should also include price
gas requires very different timing.. more down low, but less up high, and extra compression helps too...
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:33
|
|
Exactly!
Most stories about LPG giving worse economy are based on a mates brothers friends XD falcoon running a dual fuel setup.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:34
|
|
I thought the main argument in the fuel economy debate was that LPG has a lesser amount of energy (calorific rating?).
Strad, your fuel economy is probably due to the fact your setup is tuneable rather than the LPG->ULP difference.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:38
|
|
| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 11:53 |
now put in a good closed loop system or gas injection and you will have even better fuel usage...
|
my theory exactly!
Strad, instead of running more timing, if i can gauruntee a constant supply of propane ill be tuning it for about 35 pounds of boost instead
might as well take advantage of something that normally costs $8 per litre (read: ELF)
rona, instead of coming in here and voicing crap which you are just reciting from your nearest motor magazine get some real opinions and useful facts and then consult with your uncle on whether or not the toymods clan will like it...its adelaide time of 12:08, which means the workers at the pheonix society are on thier lunch break...
did it ever occur to you that the reason they are less fuel efficient is becuase they run an inefficient carby/convertor setup?
Ever think that maybe if it was injected using a normal petrol injection system (modified of course) that you would get the same economy?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:47
|
|
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:12 |
I am not talking about bolt on kits they are factory produced versions designed and tested LPQ specific models, oh and since when does motor test LPQ powered cars fool or executive and XT for that matters.
|
oh maybe you missed my point
no one cares about your super pseudo facts...
ahh fuck it
back too ignoring for joo
anyone else?
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:50
|
|
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:42 |
I am not talking about bolt on kits they are factory produced versions designed and tested LPQ specific models, oh and since when does motor test LPQ powered cars fool or executive and XT for that matters.
|
you moron, i AM talking about the difference between the SHIT factory systems, compared to even a well set up aftermarket system.
my test bunny is a friend that is running his XF falcon.. with ford 4.1L.... on 15 psi , gas only... and using a ver very old HKS "spark retarder" to control timing with boost
he's been fiddling with convertors and mixers for many years and knows a fair bit more than most installers (ie many istallers think rich is better .. and more timing is better.... LPG is counter-intuitive in many respects)
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 02:54
|
|
notice how all bar one motor are designed for ULP? ie they are tuned for POOR fuel, and for the LPG, they are tuned for the WORST gas possible.... detuned.... duh....
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 03:41
|
|
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:42 |
LPQ specific models
|
LPG
Liquid Petroleum Gas
L-P-G
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 03:42
|
|
| Norbie wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 13:41 |
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:42 |
LPQ specific models
|
LPG
Liquid Petroleum Gas
L-P-G
|
lol don't know how the fuck that happened.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 03:53
|
|
| Norbie wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 13:11 |
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 12:42 |
LPQ specific models
|
LPG
Liquid Petroleum Gas
L-P-G
|
hey norbie!
|
|
|
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 04:15
|
|
|
LPQ = Little Penised Queer = Corona_RT142
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 04:19
|
|
I had heard that you can run more boost on gas than you can on petrol. To be honest, I have no idea why you can do such a thing, but I really don't care what the reason for it is, I just will do it. My setup will be tuned to about 30psi, as it is it goes to 20psi with no troubles. All seems to be great for me, the added advantage being I can fill up sometimes for less than the minimum payment amount on a credit card..
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 05:16
|
|
i actually thought he was bein smart.. LPG+BBQ = LPQ 
well.. on my mates ford, even AVO recommended a maximum of 8psi with petrol... since the engine has no other mods..(except for AFM removal), but it's happy at 15psi and will go higher with a bugger huffer (and an auto again )
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 05:17
|
|
| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 14:46 |
i actually thought he was bein smart..
|
think about that comment for a second...
slap your self in the head
then think about it again...
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 05:20
|
|
| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 15:16 |
i actually thought he was bein smart.. LPG+BBQ = LPQ
|
Yep that was it, oh and MR1JZ as for my intelligence its probably way above yours.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
|
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 05:31
|
|
if you are reffering to useless statistics intelligence and "adelaide uncle knowledge" intelligence then youre absolutely right..i bow down to you rona god 
although...i have 5 uncles in adelaide, maybe thier collective knowledge overpowers your uncle's super knowledge...but then again none of them own fleets of exotics such as 360's, 911 turbos and RT142's either...
p.s. I cant stop laughing at the picture of the annual corona owners meeting...i can picture the said uncle sitting at the bar half cut boring the absolute poo out of anyone who comes near him
"did you know that the R32 skyline and R33 skyline actually had DOHC motors and the non turbo versions were four stud, and this one time I raced one up eagle on the hill in my mighty 22RE powered RT142 and it had all these modifications but had nothing on the rona"
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 05:36
|
|
|
Nope i'd be reffering to the fact i'm not sitting behind a help desk at the current point in time.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 05:40
|
|
ahhh grasshopper...
it is imperitive you also learn that I was once a junior accountant shit kicker like yourself, I know how much money you chumps make and what you are going to be earning for the next ten years
id much rather be where I am right now
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 06:25
|
|
meh, help desk.. accountants desk... prime ministers desk... they all suck
i want a desk where i can look out the window at a ski-field...
oh look, there it is
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 06:27
|
|
| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 04 October 2005 15:55 |
meh, help desk.. accountants desk... prime ministers desk... they all suck
i want a desk where i can look out the window at a ski-field...
oh look, there it is
|
any sexy ski bunnies on the ski field?
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 06:40
|
|
not yet.. will snow in about 4 weeks tho
hmm... sexy bunnies.... well... most japanese girls are sekushi  mmm ski bunnies
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 06:45
|
|
|
Damn man, fling some of those sekushi bunni'sh my way..
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 06:59
|
|
buy a plane ticket ..
anyway, LPG injection is good. all the benefits of LPG with the adjustability of EFI.. best of both worlds...
and the KEIhin injectors are rated at 100kw each.... should be good enough for most car applications (ie, if you are getting more than 100kw/cyl, you are doing well )
|
|
|
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 07:24
|
|
ahhh once again another toymods thread has been over run with mud slinging etc. Anyway has anyone ever seen anyone ever running injecting LPG as a liquid. I havent really found much information. Anyone have much of an idea to go about the process?
What injectors to run, how to keep it a liquid up until the injectors, fuel pressure.
Added benifits of running LPG would be no fuel pump and no cat converter.
Cheereo
|
|
|
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 08:47
|
|
Done a bit more reading. It seems that the hardest part of creating a system is locating a set of injectors that can pulse fast enough and a fuel pump that can withstand pressures of 400psi in order to keep the LPG a liquid. Also lubricating the fuel pump is a problem.
Aother bonus of using LPG as a liquid would be if it is not atomoised on the back of the valve like conventional petrol systems when injected but fired as a stream into the cylinder that the rapid expansion would also seve as to raise the compression of the cylinder.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 09:17
|
|
methinks LPG gas injection is the way to go... for now...
need converter, aftermarket ECU, Keihin injectors, O2 sensor.... tank and lines...... oh, and the usual temp/TPS etc sensors..
LPG liquid injection is nice, but high pressure is not so good...
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 11:06
|
|
Liquid LPG has all sorts of problems in petrol engines, but most of those problems disappear on a diesel. Apparently quite a few interstate truckers are running "LPG injection" on their diesels.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 11:59
|
|
Are you sure they are using LPG injection Norbie? Your not thinking CNG are you?
I know some trucking companys are using CNG like our city buses.
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 23:05
|
|
If you inject liquid LPG into a cylinder, what's the first thing it's going to do? try and turn into a gas? so lots of freezing in the cylinder head. I don't think it'll work.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 23:10
|
|
| stradlater wrote on Wed, 05 October 2005 07:05 |
If you inject liquid LPG into a cylinder, what's the first thing it's going to do? try and turn into a gas? so lots of freezing in the cylinder head. I don't think it'll work.
|
Isn't that the whole point? It's no different a theory to the dry-ice cooler the ARE (I'm sure it was them) Hilux engined 180SX has. That thing had intake temps of something like -40 degrees.
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 23:37
|
|
Eh, I figured it may not combust in quite the same fashion or as well if it's not into the gas form. IE things are more volatile if the molecules are spread further apart.
|
|
|
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 23:40
|
|
A few years back we had a work car that ran on Natural Gas, there was only one refuelling point in Canberra. It only cost <$7 to fill the tank and a tank would last approximately 800km (can't remember what capacity the tank was though???).
I wonder what the drawbacks were (apart from a lack of places to refuel) as it seemed like something that might take off but now I only see one city bus that advertises it is fueled by natural gas.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Tue, 04 October 2005 23:41
|
|
|
I'd say it'd fairly quickly evaporate into a gas once inside the hot confines of an engine, and it'd take a LOT of the heat out of the air in doing so.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Wed, 05 October 2005 00:38
|
|
1. Yes I'm sure LPG injection is used on diesels. Note it is used as a "power boost", kind of similar to methanol injection on petrol engines; I haven't heard of it being used as a replacement for diesel, but I'm sure it would work just as well as CNG for that purpose.
2. LPG injectors freezing up is a major problem with port-injected setups as found on the majority of spark-ignition engines, but that problem disappears with direct injection (ie all diesels and a handful of petrol engines). There is plenty of heat being pumped into the cylinder head via the combusion process to keep the injectors well above the freezing point of the fuel. It certainly would reduce the temperature of the inlet charge though!
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Wed, 05 October 2005 00:45
|
|
| ke382TG wrote on Wed, 05 October 2005 09:40 |
A few years back we had a work car that ran on Natural Gas, there was only one refuelling point in Canberra. It only cost <$7 to fill the tank and a tank would last approximately 800km (can't remember what capacity the tank was though???).
I wonder what the drawbacks were (apart from a lack of places to refuel) as it seemed like something that might take off but now I only see one city bus that advertises it is fueled by natural gas.
|
The draw back is that a compressor is needed to compress the gas enough to get it into the tank.
In California they have natural gas(CNG) powered cars. The owners can hire a filling station which they keep at home and connect to their gas supply. The car is attached to the filling station over night to be filled as it takes about 8 hours to fill an empty tank.
This is a great idea but I doubt it would ever happen here. The fuel/oil company's would be loosing too much money. Plus our government(unlike the Californian government) doesn't give a toss about the people being able to save some money.
|
|
|
Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Wed, 05 October 2005 00:52
|
|
| ke382TG wrote on Wed, 05 October 2005 09:40 |
A few years back we had a work car that ran on Natural Gas, there was only one refuelling point in Canberra. It only cost <$7 to fill the tank and a tank would last approximately 800km (can't remember what capacity the tank was though???).
I wonder what the drawbacks were (apart from a lack of places to refuel) as it seemed like something that might take off but now I only see one city bus that advertises it is fueled by natural gas.
|
Plenty of Sydney's buses run CNG you smell it when they drive past.
|
|
|
Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: LPG injection
|
Wed, 05 October 2005 03:26
|
|
All the melbourne buses do, it says so on the side.
|
|
|
i actually meant smartarse....