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Farkurnell
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Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 05:29 Go to next message
I know there's a lot of very smart young folk around here that could probably answer a question or two in regards to these new fangled gadgets.


Are they only for use with a TV that gets it's signal from an antenna or can they be used hooked up to a pay TV set top box that by-passes an antenna?

Do they make much of a difference to the picture quality of a normal TV?




Cheers, Greg.
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river
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hi,

Hey, there's also a lot of smart older folk around. Probably smarter than the young 'uns - but we don't like to brag. Smile

You will still need an antenna to receive the digital TV transmissions. So, you'll need to plug the antenna into your set-top box. Then you connect the set-top box, usually via RCS connectors (or VGA or SCART - depending upon what connectors the Set-top box and your TV have) to your TV.

If you have Foxtel which has the TV antenna connected itno it, your Foxtel unit should have a RF-out connector also - which is the signal from the TV antenna. YOu can connect this to the TV antenna input on your set-top box also. It's the same as above, it's just that the TV antenna goes into the Foxtel, and back out to your set-top box.

Your TV should have two video inputs for the best reception. You'd conenct the Foxtel to video1 input and connect the set-top box to video2 input.

Easy peasy!!!!

seeyuzz
river
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Farkurnell
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 06:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
river wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 15:36

Hi,

Hey, there's also a lot of smart older folk around. Probably smarter than the young 'uns - but we don't like to brag. Smile




I knew that Shane. Ya do have to encourage the youngn's though don't ya?




That's the thing ya see. I have Optus running and no outside antenna connected at all(It's buggered anyway). So does that mean the set top box is useless for my application?



Cheers, Greg.
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
You only need a wet piece of string for a set top box to receive a good enough signal. So your buggered TV antenna will be fine.
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CrUZsida
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 08:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cool1 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 14:08

You only need a wet piece of string for a set top box to receive a good enough signal. So your buggered TV antenna will be fine.

True Dat!
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THE WITZL
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrUZsida wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 18:17

Cool1 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 14:08

You only need a wet piece of string for a set top box to receive a good enough signal. So your buggered TV antenna will be fine.

True Dat!



True, in good circumstances.

However, add adverse conditions such as bad weather, electrical storms, electical "pops" through your house mains wiring, wind, poor cabling and connections etc..... and you are likely to experience a very annoying high level of signal dropouts.


Greg, by all means try out the busted antenna, and you might get lucky and have perfect signal.... but if you dont, then wait a little while and i'll get these lovely new digital TV antennas and associated reception equipment added to the jaycar product range Smile
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Farkurnell
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The antenna is busted in as much as that the co-ax is perished outside and needs replacing (too hard basket for me).

I'll have to live without digital tv until I'm forced to use it. I think I still have a couple of years yet.

Thanks for all the good oil blokes.



Cheers, Greg.
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Fri, 07 October 2005 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Digital TV antennas!!!! Laughing Ahhh yes you need a digital TV antenna! Just make sure its a colour digital TV antenna!

[Updated on: Fri, 07 October 2005 23:38]

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THE WITZL
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shane - true, there is realistically no difference between an analogue and digital antenna...

... EXCEPT that most combination or VHF only antennas on the market that are intended for analogue reception are not cut to receive the frequencies of VHF channels 6, 8, 11 and 12 properly. In fact if you plot the gain vs frequency of these old massive pieces of poo you will find some pretty shocking reception holes.

So what do i mean by a "digital antenna"?
I am refering specifically to a VHF ch 6-12 (band 3) "yagi" style antenna, that is cut with the intention of receiving channels 6, 8, 11 and 12.
By removing the need to receive channel 2, the antenna also become a shitload smaller - cos all those looooooong arse elements on your current antenna are there to receive nothing but ABC analogue TV.


Furthermore, yes in ideal reception areas your old schoool tv antenna will probably work. But if you are in an area that isnt ideal, you will need the correct equipment to receive digital tv reliably and faultlessly. So shut up shane.
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thechuckster
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 04:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fwiw, i went to hardley normal, bought the 2nd cheapest digital settop box they had on sale, took home, found the 20 year-old roll of coax cable that had been attached to the house antenna, connected that up with the cheapest fittings that DSE had in stock, attached the 20 year old house antenna to a trolley with okky-straps, leaned the trolley+antenna against wall of laundry, got better reception than i knew what to do with.

sure - in an area with lots of RF obsticles like big hills andnd large building a decent antenna might be better, but for the suburbs, just about anything will do. Mine even worked with just the coax strung out on the ground.
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 04:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
THE WITZL wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 10:18

Shane - true, there is realistically no difference between an analogue and digital antenna...

... EXCEPT that most combination or VHF only antennas on the market that are intended for analogue reception are not cut to receive the frequencies of VHF channels 6, 8, 11 and 12 properly. In fact if you plot the gain vs frequency of these old massive pieces of poo you will find some pretty shocking reception holes.
Furthermore, yes in ideal reception areas your old schoool tv antenna will probably work. But if you are in an area that isnt ideal, you will need the correct equipment to receive digital tv reliably and faultlessly. So shut up shane.


Bullshit!! RF communications is where I started in electronics and its still what I practice in. Everything you have just said is complete bullshit found in a book somewhere. There is no combination TV antenna on the market that has been "cut" or tuned to the exact frequency TV channels are on, its just impossible to do due to the broad bandwidth! So broad in fact that a 4dB TV antenna will still have about 3-3.5dB gain 40MHz out of the specified bands.
The only thing a TV antenna needs is a damm good reflector to help stop reflected out of sync signals. But this isn't even required with digital channels.

Quote:


So what do i mean by a "digital antenna"?
I am refering specifically to a VHF ch 6-12 (band 3) "yagi" style antenna, that is cut with the intention of receiving channels 6, 8, 11 and 12.
By removing the need to receive channel 2, the antenna also become a shitload smaller - cos all those looooooong arse elements on your current antenna are there to receive nothing but ABC analogue TV.


This is bullshit also! The longer elements on a TV antenna are for the VHF channels. The higher the frequency you want to receive, the smaller the elements get.
I would recommend to you that you go and work in the RF communications field designing and installing antenna systems for at least 7 years before you continue to dribble crap facts.
No matter how many jaycar catalogs or any other text books you read it will give you fuck all knowledge when it comes to RF.
And don't try and tell someone that they don't know anything about the job they have been doing most of their working life!

[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2005 04:53]

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THE WITZL
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ahhh good old shane, i can always rely on you to give me shit Smile


Quote:

There is no combination TV antenna on the market that has been "cut" or tuned to the exact frequency TV channels are on, its just impossible to do due to the broad bandwidth!


Indeed, but an antenna can be designed and made (common industry term, "cut") to yield a higher gain at the frequencies where the television transmissions exist.
Up until very recently, manufacturers didnt bother designing their antennas to receive VHF frequencies as high as 226.5MHz - sure they will still have gain up there, but not by intention, and typically lower gain than the intended frequencies.

Quote:

This is bullshit also! The longer elements on a TV antenna are for the VHF channels. The higher the frequency you want to receive, the smaller the elements get.



Correct, I am well aware of this.
However I was specifically referring to the extremely long (over ~70cm span) elements. These VHF ch 6-12 antennas dont have elements spanning more than 50cm.

Quote:

I would recommend to you that you go and work in the RF communications field designing and installing antenna systems for at least 7 years before you continue to dribble crap facts.


CBF, instead i just spend time communicating and working with my antenna manufacturer and GME Kingray. These are the guys with the experience and knowledge, and it is upon their advice and expertise that I am developing the range of products for dedicated digital reception for all situations, not just the ideal ones.
I would be seriously concerned if the head design engineer of GME Kingray (a name you should undoubtedly know and probably would respect) was "dribbling crap facts" to me.

Quote:

No matter how many jaycar catalogs or any other text books you read it will give you fuck all knowledge when it comes to RF.
And don't try and tell someone that they don't know anything about the job they have been doing most of their working life!


I'd swear this is like the 4th or 5th profession you've claimed to have had Razz
Either way, my comment was a little tongue in cheek mate, wasnt meant to be having a dig Smile

Yes I realise I have little real world experience with RF signals, that's why i consulted the ones who did.

EDIT: ended up not being brief Razz

[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2005 08:27]

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THE WITZL
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Just to get a visual perception of the VHF band 3 (ch 6-12) antennas i'm referring to.. here is the sample model from the manufacturer, soon to be cable tied to my roof Very Happy

http://www.witzl.com/random/HG-610.jpg



Just for the hell of it... here is the not yet released diplexer from GME Kingray, specifically engineered and designed for digital tv reception combining the signals of the above type of antenna with a separate UHF antenna..... i cant be arsed remembering and typing out all the upgrades, specs and features that have been built into this (and other) product(s) from GME specifically for digital reception.

http://www.witzl.com/random/diplexer.jpg


...... ok, now you can have the last word, and i'll do my best not to reply Smile
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
THE WITZL wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 18:22



CBF, instead i just spend time communicating and working with my antenna manufacturer and GME Kingray. These are the guys with the experience and knowledge, and it is upon their advice and expertise that I am developing the range of products for dedicated digital reception for all situations, not just the ideal ones.
I would be seriously concerned if the head design engineer of GME Kingray (a name you should undoubtedly know and probably would respect) was "dribbling crap facts" to me.


You want to know whats real funny about this? You have just specified one company that I design for! Thats right, I actually design RF modulators and filters for GME. Hows that float your boat?
I'll also point out that GME does not have a head design engineer. All designing is contracted out.

Quote:


I'd swear this is like the 4th or 5th profession you've claimed to have had Razz


No, I'm an electronics engineer. I first did a trade cert in RF/Microwave technology(or some such shit). I then continued on to complete a diploma then an advanced diploma in electronics. I then completed engineering covering broad general electrical and electronics. This gives me certification in TV/Microwave, Security, Appliance, grid work, domestic electrical, commercial electrical and pretty much everything else electronics/electrical!
Quote:


Yes I realise I have little real world experience with RF signals, that's why i consulted the ones who did.


You mean the people that want you to sell their products?
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I would very much love to know your specs and features of your posted GME diplexer! Please tell me.
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THE WITZL
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
interesting to know Shane! Shocked (seriously!!)

I will happily stand down on my comments regarding GME having design engineers if what you say is true.....
.... so what's Peter Cooke's role there then?? Confused

Did you have any input on the new MHW24F (currently called MHW24F-) masthead amp, the aforementioned DPOLUHF diplexer, or any of the other new releases? If so I commend you on some very nice work!!


Anyway mate... feel free to email/msn/whatever to dribble shit further, im heading over to YelloRolla's place to ogle some 8valve goodness Smile
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
THE WITZL wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 19:13


.... so what's Peter Cooke's role there then?? Confused


Beats me, I dont work within GME. And its not his name on the moneys transfer form that gets sent to me.
Quote:


Did you have any input on the new MHW24F (currently called MHW24F-) masthead amp, the aforementioned DPOLUHF diplexer, or any of the other new releases?

I cant give you any information on model numbers you/GME or anyone else has made up. You will havee to pull the units apart and give me the IPN number. You should also note that we dont call anything supplied to GME diplexers! We call them Traps, Notch filters and pass filters because thats what they are.

[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2005 09:30]

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havabeer
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wel that was some interesting reading.

this is ewhat i wanna know. are digital set top boxes the same as HD (high definition) top boxes??

and if they are why dont companies like foxtel and that use rf signals for there broadcast's, obviously sequrity is one, but i though that pretty much wiped that out with the new cardless boxes they brought out.

just seams cheaper by my point of view?
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
havabeer wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 22:46


this is ewhat i wanna know. are digital set top boxes the same as HD (high definition) top boxes??


High definition decoders are digital! You can get standard definition decoders and high definition.
Quote:


and if they are why dont companies like foxtel and that use rf signals for there broadcast's, obviously sequrity is one, but i though that pretty much wiped that out with the new cardless boxes they brought out.

just seams cheaper by my point of view?

Foxtel did start out years ago by transmitting their signal via microwave transmitters. You still see some houses these days with the old MDS antennas.
The fact is that its cheaper for Optus/Telstra to run a dedicated cable than have transmitters everywhere.
Also for FYI, the cardless boxes you speak off still have advanced decryption like the boxes requiring smart cards. Just that instead of registering the smart card, you now register the box.
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Toobs
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Foxtel still do send signals via microwave... those of us in the real world call it satellite tv though. Razz

PS Why don't you ever see a dedicated earth on any of the GME stuff cool1??? I imagined that everything you made would have triple redundant earthing points Very Happy
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Cool1
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Re: Digital Set Top Boxes Sat, 08 October 2005 21:13 Go to previous message
Toobs wrote on Sun, 09 October 2005 02:31



PS Why don't you ever see a dedicated earth on any of the GME stuff cool1??? I imagined that everything you made would have triple redundant earthing points Very Happy

In the cheap n nasty repeaters I designed for them, they have a massive earth stud on the back Very Happy
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