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Location:
sydney
Registered:
June 2005
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140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 11:42
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Is it possible to acheive 140 kw atw (or close to) from a silver top 20v.
what mods would be needed to do this (no turbo conversion replies) as it would be fitted into my next project car.
i dont have a budget as it will be built progresively.
I was thinking of maybe:
4 into 1 extactors
2.5inch exhaust straight throughwith a high flow cat
286 degree cams
upgraded valve springs
port and polished head
pod filter in a custom airbox
microtech ltx12 ( or something similar)
550cc injectors
what other mods would u recomend i estimate these mods will get roughly 110kw atw.
what other mods would u recomend to be done to achieve my goal
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 12:37
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forumla atlantic motor = 240hp = 180kw at flywheel
at wheeels.. maybe 130-140kw.
so you need to build something with either formula atlantic specs or better (or find a "generous" dyno).
buy an atlantic motor, rev it to 11000 or 12000rpmn, have no power below 6000rpm (a bitch to park at 6000rpm  ) and got defected everywhere you go as well as having the engine last.. what? a couple of weeks...
good plan
110 is a more achievable goal.. but why not think about actual engine power.. instead of wanky at the wheels power???
how much power do you want at flywheeel and at what rpm?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 13:08
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oldcorollas speaks the truth.
for the money you'd spend on getting that power n/a you'd be better going for a turbo setup. other than that go for some cams, ecu, ditch the AFM, raise the compression if you want to keep it n/a
really keeping it n/a is not worth the money if all you're after is power. boost is the answer.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 14:40
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I am going to keep my 20v n/a. Purely for romantic reasons, and the possability of racing in a sensible class in the future. Mine is not even going yet, but...
Try aiming for 100kw @ wheels. Or 110. In other words, try aiming for 200hp at the flywheel. To get there you will need to be able to rev close to 9000rpm. The main thing is camshafts. You will need something a bit wilder, something aproaching 300 degrees duration, and with a bit more lift. Realy, I think you need Toda race chamshafts with new Toda valve springs, a programable computer, dyno tune. If the bottom end breaks at high revs, then i guess it needs to be rebuilt with better rod bolts or something. I think the bottom ends are fairly good, just needs to be built cafefully if you want it to go to 9000rpm.
Just a guess, but I imagine a stock 20 valve with 10.5 compression, race cams about 300 degrees dialed in right, and a good dyno tune... I am guessing 175hp is easy, 185hp at the fly is not too hard. 200hp with all the right parts and hight comression, peak power at 8500rpm. This translates to about 100kw @ wheels I guess.
Stock injectors should do fine.
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Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 14:59
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to get some good power out of a 20 valve, i think your going to need it to rev pretty high, in order to do that youll either need to blueprint the engine, make sure everythings balanced and shit.
or you might need to upgrade all the internals aswell, to lighter/stronger items.
these are general tips as i dont know what RPM a 4age can take before it throws a rod, etc.
Eldar.O.
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Location:
The realist ghetto area P...
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 15:13
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maybe deck the head a bit but making sure your valves dont smash onto the piston ?? lightened flywheel? advanced timming? higher compression pistons?? do sum hectic porting on the head especially the exhuast side??
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 15:27
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| LAA.80E wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 01:13 |
maybe deck the head a bit but making sure your valves dont smash onto the piston ?? lightened flywheel? advanced timming? higher compression pistons?? do sum hectic porting on the head especially the exhuast side??
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LOL  maybe paint the rocker cover while you're at it 
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Location:
The realist ghetto area P...
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 15:52
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lololol
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 15:53
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| Quote: |
Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ??? Wed, 19 October 2005 01:27
LAA.80E wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 01:13
maybe deck the head a bit but making sure your valves dont smash onto the piston ?? lightened flywheel? advanced timming? higher compression pistons?? do sum hectic porting on the head especially the exhuast side??
LOL Very Happy maybe paint the rocker cover while you're at it Wink
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i couldnt help but laugh at this
=p
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Location:
The realist ghetto area P...
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 15:55
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you must be on sum heavy drugs!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 18 October 2005 22:08
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As an interesting note about peak power, I hepled a friend build a 16v rally motor for his AE86 rally car. It had 288 cams, high compression, head work, 20v throttle bodies and a Haltech. When we finished, it produced a massive 70kW at the wheels.
Doesn't sound like much does it? Yet, everyone who drove the car was blown away by how quick it was, the car went on to win the NSW P2 (under 1600) class that year.
The moral of the story is, power numbers are a very small part of the engine equation. Usable power will win far more races than peak power anywhere except a dragstrip....
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
June 2005
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 19 October 2005 10:51
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what the hell are you going to do with 120kw in a front wheel drive?
tell us what you want to do son!
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 19 October 2005 10:57
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| devolutio wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 20:51 |
what the hell are you going to do with 120kw in a front wheel drive?
tell us what you want to do son!
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its being built for the purpose oof being a n/a tripple threat
Show
Track
Street
i kind of want a bit more than 120kw but that is my main goal
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 19 October 2005 11:12
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buy a 2zz-ge.
quit being a girl and thinking that a 20V is a powerful motor.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 19 October 2005 11:22
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| THE WITZL wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 21:12 |
buy a 2zz-ge.
quit being a girl and thinking that a 20V is a powerful motor.
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so with a 2zzge would i be able to pump out over 120 kw atw and what mods would need to be done as weel as wat custom work needs to be done to fit this engine in and what type of gearbox would be bolted to it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 19 October 2005 12:22
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| shotoy wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 20:01 |
would 120 kw atw be a more reasonable goal to set as i know a person who has an ae82 rolla with a 20v exhaust filter and michrotech and pulled 98 front wheel kilowatts.
im thinking of
4 into 1 extactors
2.5inch exhaust straight throughwith a high flow cat
286 degree cams
upgraded valve springs
port and polished head
pod filter in a custom airbox
microtech ltx12 ( or something similar)
550cc injectors
and a metal head gasket
is this enough or should i put in high comp pistons, forged rods to keep the bottom end in place
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and what do they get when they put it on a "less optimistic" dyno???
there are a few threads around (on a few forums) giving real figure for 4AGZE and 20V motors, and their resulting 1/4 times.
20V does not have 120kw from factory. 100kw with just filter, exhaust and microtech is a little.. well..... i know some ppl will tell you it is believable...
if it is for show, just find a generous dyno (like the one above) and just tell everyone it has hektik powah 
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 19 October 2005 21:57
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find one of those guys you see in Burwood, Lebkemba or Auburnon with the 6 foot "Queen St" stickers down their cars and ask where they got their cars dyno'ed - you are guaranteed 140kWatw from a 4ac at those places!
As for the power and performance of the 2zz-ge... i'm 100% sold on the engine. Just look at the records page: http://www.toymods.org.au/records.html
120kwATW is not hard for the 2zz-ge at all.
How to fit it in an AE82.... well that remains a sight to be seen in this country I'd say..... but it's not impossible.
You'd definitely want the matching 6 speed.
oh... dont forget to budget about $10,000-15000 to complete the conversion too.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Thu, 20 October 2005 00:51
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| devolutio wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 20:51 |
what the hell are you going to do with 120kw in a front wheel drive?
tell us what you want to do son!
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lol you put it in a track car.my little shopping cart will have around the 280kw{would be more but restrictor ruins the party} at the fly for the track.this is 4agte in a ae93.the cars been on a huge diet,amazing how much weight you can get out.ill put it on the scales when ive finished the molly cage,but after 35 metres of molly cage has gone in the car will be well under 1000kg wet.can anyone say torque steer the main straight!lmao
now getting back to hp figures!best bet is to keep taking the car to the same dyno when you make changes,helps to keep figure in the ballpark as far as figures go.id say if you took it to croydon you would easy get 140rwkw from a stock 3k with 500k km's on it using old cooking oil as fuel.
mick
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Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Thu, 20 October 2005 04:59
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Gday all,
Just to share my experiences with dyno figures and the 4age 20v, if you pull an honest 70 fwkw, be very happy.
I did a 20v4age into ae92 sx conversion about 4 (?) years ago now and still happily enjoy driving my car, engine is still stock, original air filter box etc... As for tarting up a front wheel drive, mine gets a little bit of torque steer in stock trim, dont know wtf you'd want over 100fwkw for. As for the lovely new sportivo motor, if you pull an honest 100fwkw, be happy.
ae101 20v 4age engines are great cheap revvy fun and go well considering their age and 1.6 capacity.
Also you should be able to find about a million threads about these engines by using the search feature
Seeks.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Thu, 20 October 2005 10:15
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| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 07:57 |
find one of those guys you see in Burwood, Lebkemba or Auburnon with the 6 foot "Queen St" stickers down their cars and ask where they got their cars dyno'ed - you are guaranteed 140kWatw from a 4ac at those places!
As for the power and performance of the 2zz-ge... i'm 100% sold on the engine. Just look at the records page: http://www.toymods.org.au/records.html
120kwATW is not hard for the 2zz-ge at all.
How to fit it in an AE82.... well that remains a sight to be seen in this country I'd say..... but it's not impossible.
You'd definitely want the matching 6 speed.
oh... dont forget to budget about $10,000-15000 to complete the conversion too.
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hmmmm lebkemba u say might go past and ask them
as for the car its an ae92 and i will be sticking with the 20v and the mods listed wether or not it makes 120 kw atw i know that it will still be a quick streetcar. 
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Fri, 21 October 2005 02:03
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| seeks wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 12:59 |
As for the lovely new sportivo motor, if you pull an honest 100fwkw, be happy.
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It seems like an honest 100fwkw is the worst you'd expect out of a 2ZZ-GE. Seeing a 2004 stock Sportivo did 108.3, I wouldn't be supprised if post April '05 revision Sportivo's did 110kw. Amusingly, one 1ZZ-FE Corolla at the day (quoted at 100kw by Toyota) pulled 80.2fwkw. The 4AG varients look quite outdated compared to results like that.
http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?sh owtopic=3974
The Official Results from Dyno Day 16/10/2005
Name Class Make/Model Power Output kW
BANGN Modified Toyota Corolla Sportivo 112.8
Peekay Modified Honda Accord Euro 111.2
Egene Son Modified Toyota Corolla Sportivo 111.1
Omni1 Stock Toyota Corolla Sportivo 108.3
Lucio Modified Toyota Corolla Sportivo 108.2
Spec_Black Modified Toyota Corolla Sportivo 108.2
Arcxis Modified Toyota Corolla Sportivo 107.3
HDACHE Stock Toyota Corolla Sportivo 103.8
BlackZR Stock Toyota Celica 100.1
Atenza23 Modified Mazda 6 90.4
Danz Modified Toyota Corolla Levin 84.0
Corolla_20 Stock Toyota Corolla Ascent 80.2
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Fri, 21 October 2005 02:05
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Screaminrolla on here has 128.0kw at the front wheels from his 2zzge with bolt on mods and a chip.
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Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 25 October 2005 02:05
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| buck naked wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 12:03 |
It seems like an honest 100fwkw is the worst you'd expect out of a 2ZZ-GE. Seeing a 2004 stock Sportivo did 108.3, I wouldn't be supprised if post April '05 revision Sportivo's did 110kw. Amusingly, one 1ZZ-FE Corolla at the day (quoted at 100kw by Toyota) pulled 80.2fwkw. The 4AG varients look quite outdated compared to results like that.
[/b]
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Interesting, my brother spent quite a while with a dyno and his sportivo. He did dyno runs while testing the 'new revision' computer and alternate intake setup, with these new revision changes I didn't see any 110kw results. I might dig up the sheets and other information somewhere if anyone else is interested, possibly the dyno readings were a bit low ? Seems like all dynos vary a little bit.
Catcha,
Seeks.
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 25 October 2005 03:20
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as everyone is saying on a optimistic dyno a 20v will make mid 90kw
eg, on old dyno i used to use 20v, good exhaust, microtech or motec, made between 92 and 98kw, every 20v i did on that dyno got over 90kw...
put one of those cars on my dyno and it made 79kw which is around 7-10kw up on a stock 20v that was at a recient dyno dyno one was even as low as mid 60kw...
my mate is building a 20v with big cams, higher comp, ported head etc so be interesting to see the difference with that.
120kw in a street drivable engine on a normal dyno is a big ask, 100kw is more like it.
dale
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Location:
eastern suburbs, melbourne
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 25 October 2005 04:00
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| 10sec_rx7 wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 13:20 |
my mate is building a 20v with big cams, higher comp, ported head etc so be interesting to see the difference with that.
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keep us posted please.
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 25 October 2005 04:11
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will do
the head should be finished this week then i just have to wire the ecu and run it it so give me a month or so
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Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 25 October 2005 04:25
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| 10sec_rx7 wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 13:20 |
as everyone is saying on a optimistic dyno a 20v will make mid 90kw
eg, on old dyno i used to use 20v, good exhaust, microtech or motec, made between 92 and 98kw, every 20v i did on that dyno got over 90kw...
put one of those cars on my dyno and it made 79kw which is around 7-10kw up on a stock 20v that was at a recient dyno dyno one was even as low as mid 60kw...
my mate is building a 20v with big cams, higher comp, ported head etc so be interesting to see the difference with that.
120kw in a street drivable engine on a normal dyno is a big ask, 100kw is more like it.
dale
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Howdy,
I totally agree, I've seen all kinds of dyno figures sprouted out about 20v engines, this is why i put the words "honest dyno" in my post. My friend got his old mr2 aw11 non-sc dyno'd when he bought it from a place and they said it scored 100kw at the wheels, god it shits me the rubbish people come up with.
My stock 20v did/does high 60's, it's in good condition and is quite zippy when driving. On the same dyno my brothers sportivo did mid/high 90's, he only just cracked 100 after fiddling a bit.
I'm sitting here scratching my head thinking shit, why are these figures so much lower than what other people come up with, but it does seem to really vary depending on the dyno or possibly software modes used on readout ?
Catchas,
Seeks.
[Updated on: Tue, 25 October 2005 04:29]
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 25 October 2005 04:50
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i dont know the exact reasons for the differences, software isnt it i can tell you that, my dyno has about 8 y/o software (no air temp corrections, shootout mode etc) on it and it reads identical to a dyno in newcastle that is a few months old, i tested this after the 20v went on my dyno as i thought it was reading low, so i ran up my starlet made 189hp, drove to newcastle ran it up there and it made 187hp. my dyno was calabrated a few weeks before i purchased it as was the dyno in newcastle when it was installed.
so as far as i can tell when it is calabrated correctly and the operator follows the correct procedures they should give similer readings,
the way i figure it is if a 20v gets on my dyno and makes 95kw it is going to be a rocket!
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 26 October 2005 00:00
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Gday gday,
The dyno runs we did were in newcastle, in Mayfield, 'Scotts dyno tune' i think it's called ?
That's interesting about a workshop specialising in the 2zzge, I figure they'd have a fair clue about 20v's too, where is it ?
High 70 kw to 108 kw, you'd have to be upset if you got the early one - So anyway, are the massive changes to the revisions of 2zzge documented anywhere ? I'd like to know what was changed and made so much difference besides the ecu.
Cheers,
Seeks.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 October 2005 00:01]
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Wed, 26 October 2005 00:44
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What I read (SAE article I think) was that the VVTL-i actuator became very unreliable very quickly. Maybe this is a different fault, though.
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Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Thu, 27 October 2005 06:02
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Anyone else know about these massive revisions to the 2zz ?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Thu, 27 October 2005 07:53
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| seeks wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 08:00 |
That's interesting about a workshop specialising in the 2zzge, I figure they'd have a fair clue about 20v's too, where is it ?
High 70 kw to 108 kw, you'd have to be upset if you got the early one - So anyway, are the massive changes to the revisions of 2zzge documented anywhere ? I'd like to know what was changed and made so much difference besides the ecu.
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Those high 70kw results were on the pre-recall Sportivo's, before they modified the airbox and ECU. There have been versions of the Celica which have had a lower rev limiter, but I haven't found any source documenting the revisions.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Thu, 27 October 2005 09:55
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Just more info to back up the 2ZZ, mates got one in his celica, and it pulls very hard for a little 1.8.
There was also a 20V in a sprinter at the last Dyno Day that pulled 122RWKW...
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Registered:
July 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Sat, 29 October 2005 03:05
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120hp shot of NOS will get you 130-140kw atw with a standard 20valve... easy and cheap 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Sat, 29 October 2005 03:16
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NOS ain't that cheap, and it's definitely not road legal
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Location:
fairfield
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Sat, 29 October 2005 08:33
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my mate he hav 2ov ...he done cam haltech ecu n it 9000 easy his makein close to 96kw at the wheel
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Sat, 29 October 2005 13:55
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why put more power into FWD?
they have enough power in stock form...enough to make them torque steer.
id concentrate more on making it handle rather than power.
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Registered:
July 2005
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 01 November 2005 00:11
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 29 October 2005 13:16 |
NOS ain't that cheap, and it's definitely not road legal
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he doesnt state if he wants it road legal and HP/$$ it is cheap
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 01 November 2005 00:32
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| SR20 trueno wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 11:11 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 29 October 2005 13:16 |
NOS ain't that cheap, and it's definitely not road legal
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he doesnt state if he wants it road legal and HP/$$ it is cheap
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Cheap initially yes, but long term costs or nos let alone the damage it can do to your engine is exy.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 01 November 2005 00:39
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yeah, you'l blow the welds on your intake.
sorry, had to be said.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 01 November 2005 01:03
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nos is for people that dont know how to get horsepower!lmao
god if i used nos id go threw a bottle in a few minutes and to me that isnt fun.id rather have the horsepower there all the time,not some quick fix kind of solution.leave the nos for the drag strip.a nos system will cost around $1200 for a kit,then fitting and tuning so it isnt that cheap.then the cost of refilling which will get pricey if you use it alot, and lets face it, who wont!
leave nos for people that cant drive a car hard and are scared of braking and fast corners!
mick
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Nthn Beaches, Sydney
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 01 November 2005 02:03
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Anybody got much experience with the sort of revs a standard bottom end can handle (reliably)? I mean standard crank rods pistons etc.
With these mentions of 9000rpm on standard bottom ends has anybody got one that has survived/performed up to that for any length of time?
Mine's been balanced with a lightened (scalloped standard) flywheel, and (not that i'm planning on doing it anytime soon, if ever) just wondering what sort of revs would be possible? Are these guys saying above mine should be capable of 9000rpm???
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 140kw atw from a n/a 20v ???
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Tue, 01 November 2005 04:49
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Apparently when they used to race the AE-92s at Bathurst (same rods), they found that the rods would stretch if they used over 8500.
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