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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
London
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July 2004
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 21:19
 
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yeah I wish I could do that too, put such light engine into an ae86, I know you're being sarcastic, but in case you didn't notice, I've got nothing to do with the design and/or production of these engines, I just found it interesting that it was claimed to be invented in the 1930s and wanted to find out if anyone else got hold of the plan and tried building one, but if I'm ever good enough with metal fabrication, I'd like to have a micro-sized unit about 10-20cc for a scooter or 1-2 men transport, and/or a 10-20hp unit for a generator, but at the moment you can't find one for sale!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 00:51
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| 86tt wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 07:19 |
yeah I wish I could do that too, put such light engine into an ae86, I know you're being sarcastic, but in case you didn't notice, I've got nothing to do with the design and/or production of these engines, I just found it interesting that it was claimed to be invented in the 1930s and wanted to find out if anyone else got hold of the plan and tried building one, but if I'm ever good enough with metal fabrication, I'd like to have a micro-sized unit about 10-20cc for a scooter or 1-2 men transport, and/or a 10-20hp unit for a generator, but at the moment you can't find one for sale!
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there is no doubt it was designed back then.
there is no doubt there are runnign examples.
there is doubt as to whether this design, along with hundreds of other whacky designs, is actually an improvement on current piston/rotor technology.
there is also no doubt that you are fanatical abotu this and it is all you ever post about 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 02:18
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It's interesting, but it's just a petrol engine. We need to move into something better than petrol. If it could run on hydrogen (as mentioned) that might be a thought.
In the test video, what A/F ratio is it running at?
20.7kw at 4000rpm from 500ccs isn't that impressive, and that's assuming you can trust their reported power.
They make some bold claims.
Lean F/A (shouldn't that be AF?)... but they don't tell you what the A/F ratio is. 'Lean' could just be 17:1.
I wanna see that prototypes A/F ratio curve, torque curve and power curve on a dyno graph.
I notice that they say it's a "single stroke engine" which is a lie, as there are 2 pistons. I saw somewhere else say that it's a 2 stroke, which makes more sense. If it is 2 stroke, then I have my doubts about it's ability to reduce emissions, unless it's run on something like Hydrogen.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 02:28
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Rona, your car is about to die (as you have described in the tech section) so why don't you:
1. Contract 86tt to build Bourke engine for the RT142
2. Fit said engine
3. ??????
4. Profit
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 02:34
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| ke382TG wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 12:28 |
Rona, your car is about to die (as you have described in the tech section) so why don't you:
1. Contract 86tt to build Bourke engine for the RT142
2. Fit said engine
3. ??????
4. Profit
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Cos i want something that'll work  though its specific power output per litre does beat a 22re and I hear promises of good fuel economy woot i'm sold where do I sign up. For extra effect can I please have an electric supercharger and a hiclone air filter.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 03:05
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 12:34 |
Cos i want something that'll work
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Then why do you have a Corona? 
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 03:08
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| Shraka wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 13:05 |
| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 12:34 |
Cos i want something that'll work
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Then why do you have a Corona?
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well it worked for 415000kms so far (something your Honda can only dream of). Ahem commercial engine = will not die. Tailshaft however hmmm .
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Location:
London
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 10:00
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 03:25 |
The two stroke thing is arguable ie the Orange thing they had at the Sydney motorshow a few years back ran a 2.3L(i think, it's also arguable that it ran) two stroke orbital engine.
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Are you talking about the Sarich orbital 2 stoke? I remember a big deal being made if it about 15 years back, but it never amounted to anything..
Lotus were doing some interesting work with a 'switchable 2/4 stroke engine with elctronically operated valves...
Not sure what happened with it though
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 10:20
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| Shraka wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 12:18 |
It's interesting, but it's just a petrol engine. We need to move into something better than petrol. If it could run on hydrogen (as mentioned) that might be a thought.
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I think to run on hydrogen, it's probably better to have a full aluminium construction and/or ceramic coated, which seems to be so easy for such engine...
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In the test video, what A/F ratio is it running at?
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I think the original engine was claimed to run at around 50:1, but recent Vaux Engine (same engine, renamed with some small changes) are being tested at 20:1, but I can't recall where I got that info from as it's been a while since I've last read it
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20.7kw at 4000rpm from 500ccs isn't that impressive, and that's assuming you can trust their reported power.
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yeah, in the year 2005, it's starting to become very common, but at that time in the year 1930s, I think it's at least 4x better than the nearest competitor, it was never given a fair go and if we had spent 70 years researching and developing the engine, things may be different, but if the claims are true, #1 The 500cc engine may still be 2-4 times more efficient than current engines, and #2, this design may be very useful for a small (~100cc) and maintainance free engine, for remote rural power generation etc.
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I wanna see that prototypes A/F ratio curve, torque curve and power curve on a dyno graph.
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That would be a very good idea to request such thing from these researchers, but how are we going to measure the A/F ratio? Coz currently we use a delta sensor right? Do they go further than 18:1?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 18:39
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[quote title=oldcorollas wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 23:08
your such a tool
so whay should it be ceramic coated? what do you actually know about ceramic coating? what coating will you use? TiN, PSZ, alumina? etc etc??? and your reasoning is?
and why fully aluminium? please justify.
[/quote]
Why? You asked me why you need a aluminium engine or ceramic coated for a hydrogen engine? So why? You tell me why?
so who cares if it's a lambda sensor or if it's a delta sensor, you can be a prick all day trying to pick out every little mistakes people make but it's not going to get you anywhere, the challenge here is figuring out if it's possible to detect a/f ratios of more than 20:1, and have you contributed to the discussion by being a prick?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 13:56
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oldcorollas - you are funny  Keep it up...I don't even see 86tt's posts anymore and I can still tell he's a 'bit dull'.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 14:17
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oh, and i may be a prick, but i nearly always include information in my posts... so if ppl are observant, they can still learn..
now you know the range that LAMBDA sensors can measure... and you also have learnt that they measure lambda ratio, as opposed to AFR..
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Location:
hunter
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 15:18
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 21:45
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I don't know corolla, I'm just having a very very rough guess, what happens when you burn hydrogen? And how do you waterproof an engine? And if the engine is relatively small in size, and combustion temperature is low, wouldn't aluminium alloy be a good choice?
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 23:40
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| Shraka wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 12:18 |
It's interesting, but it's just a petrol engine. We need to move into something better than petrol. If it could run on hydrogen (as mentioned) that might be a thought.
In the test video, what A/F ratio is it running at?
20.7kw at 4000rpm from 500ccs isn't that impressive, and that's assuming you can trust their reported power.
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it does run on hydrogen theres another vid that i posted up on another thread about this..
and 20.7kw at 4000rpm from from 500cc thats not that bad thats quite impresive i reckon. mind u it needs work for the induction etc like all the rotars did back in the day. even some forced induction.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 00:04
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Actualy, after thinking about it a bit more, that doesn't sound to bad. It's in line with modern engine outputs, yet is just a built at home job. So yeah.
As for the aluminium thing, you'd want the engine to heat up to the point where the combustion was being the most effective. You'd just have to make the cooling system shut down untill it got to that temperature, then keep it there. I don't see any need to make it out of aluminium in particular. But perhaps Oldcorollas could explain it a bit better than me.
As for the less moving parts, it seems to have more moving parts (or friction points anyway) than a rotary.
It sounds like an interesting engine, but it just looks like nobody could be bothered developing it 'cuz standard piston engines work fine.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 00:08
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:04 |
Actualy, after thinking about it a bit more, that doesn't sound to bad. It's in line with modern engine outputs, yet is just a built at home job. So yeah.
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You sure i don't know to many current 2.0L motor than only put out 82.8kw.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 00:12
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burning hydrogen gas for energy is inefficient - very inefficient.
Weight-for-weight, burning your own farts would release more energy (as heat) than hydrogen.
The only reason you'd have hydrogen-powered cars is if they have fuel cells - gizmos that produce electricity from a chemical reaction - that drive electric motors.
These threads are nothing but bullshit/FUD spreaders - i vote BAN+LOCK.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 00:42
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| thechuckster wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:12 |
burning hydrogen gas for energy is inefficient - very inefficient.
Weight-for-weight, burning your own farts would release more energy (as heat) than hydrogen.
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You realise your essentially burning hydrogen to produce energy in petrol right. 
Hmmmm so what do they use to send rockets into orbet again.
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 01:16
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Specific energy : weight figures for hydrogen...
This is a fact that cannot be disputed. The volume occupied by hydrogen in free space with the equivalent amount of energy to a given amount of petrol is four times that of petrol. The fact that it weighs half as much doesn't matter if you can't contain it.
Along with a distinct lack of platinum, which is required for the PEM's (proton exchange membrane), this is the main restricrtion to fuel cells. This is not insurmountable though. Current hydrogen storage technologies rely on a carbon matrix, whether that be nanotubes or 'fluffy' stuff doesn't really matter as long at it has a high surface area that the hydrogen can stick to (with the aid of a metallic catalyst... Unfortunately platinum is on the cards here... again).
The concept of burning hydrogen in a conventional engine takes the wang. What is the point in persisting with internal combustion technology? The efficiency will never exceed 20-30% because you will always be losing a significant amount of heat.
As far as waterproofing the engine is concerned. Tell me what you predict the combustion temperatures to be. Now tell me that water will be in a liquid state at that temperature...
Oh, and do you have any idea how many of these prototype rotary/orbital engines have floated around in peoples heads? The fact will always remain that they are engineering playthings. The friction will always be an issue, and there is a limit to the quality/resilience of the seals we can produce.
Give it a rest.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 01:54
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:33 |
| thechuckster wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:12 |
burning hydrogen gas for energy is inefficient - very inefficient.
Weight-for-weight, burning your own farts would release more energy (as heat) than hydrogen.
The only reason you'd have hydrogen-powered cars is if they have fuel cells - gizmos that produce electricity from a chemical reaction - that drive electric motors.
These threads are nothing but bullshit/FUD spreaders - i vote BAN+LOCK.
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Oh realy? Okay then, that changes my view on things. Oh, you might want to send BMW an email telling them that, 'cuz they seem to be wasting a lot of money developing their H2R Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine powered car. Man if they knew about fart power they coulda saves a LOT of time and money!
How about you just not post about things you know nothing about eh? That'd be handy.
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seeing as you're obvisouly a shit-hot rocket scientist and i'm not... here's some basic research for you:
a google search for "release of energy from hydrogen" returns many hits relating to use of Hydrogen in vehicles for fuel cells not combustion - canned link for the lazy.
In a paper discussing the benefits of adding Hydrogen to Natural Gas supply system to potentially reduce NG use.
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Natural gas is actually methane, or CH4, a com-pound of one part C and two of H2. One part of H2 has roughly one third of the calorific value of CH4. This means that if you add ten per cent hydrogen (by volume) to the natural gas, you have added only three per cent energy value. In order to main-tain the same calorific value, you have to transport a much higher volume of gas
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(see http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/content.asp?content id=353
Only someone with your expertise in gas combustion and transfer systems would realise that adding a relatively large amount of hydrogen to the NG combustion equation only results in a small addition of energy.
but the wikipedia seems to have done much of the work for us:
In the section called "Energies per unit mass" - it does list hydrogen as having a higher calorific value than petrol - but that's for liquid hydrogen, not the gas
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hydrogen 120 MJ/kg
gasoline 44 MJ/kg
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(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energies_per_unit_mas s)
Important thing about hydrogen as a liquid - at normal temperatures is a gas and to exist as a liquid must be cooled to a very low temperature, 20.268 K (-423.188 °F). Liquid hydrogen has a very low density of 70.8 kg/m³ (at 20 K), so storage tanks for it have to be quite large...
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen)
Sure, BMW are using it but...
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Some hydrogen cars currently exist, and a significant amount of research is underway to make the technology more viable. The common internal combustion engine, usually fueled with gasoline (petrol) or diesel liquids, can be converted to run on gaseous hydrogen. However, the most efficient use of hydrogen involves the use of fuel cells and electric motors instead of a traditional engine.
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(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car
so you don't think i'm relying on the wikipedia, here's what the autralian academy of science had to say about it:
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A futuristic filling station kept EXPO 2000's fleet of converted BMWs running. Drivers pulled up at the pump, pressed a button on their dashboard, and watched from inside the car as a laser-guided robotic arm connected the store of liquid hydrogen to their tank. Filling took about 3 minutes. It was wise to keep well out of the way, at minus 253ºC liquid hydrogen is unimaginably cold.
The special insulated tanks in the BMWs held 140 litres of hydrogen, enough to drive at least 300 kilometres. (That?s a reasonable range, although a 95 litre tank of petrol would take the same cars twice as far.) The hydrogen-powered marathon car at the Sydney Olympics also ran on liquid hydrogen. Its much smaller tank (75 litres) gave it a range of about 400 kilometres, a sign of the greater efficiency of fuel cell cars.
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(underline is my ephasis, from http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063key.htm)
Satisfied now that i've done some research for you?
And how about you not parrot vehicle-manufacturer propaganda back us? that would be even handier.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 01:57
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Yes but when you burn methane what do you think is actually burning and releasing energy, its fucking hydrogen .
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 02:02
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 11:57 |
Yes but when you burn methane what do you think is actually burning and releasing energy, its fucking hydrogen .
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which quickly reacts with the nearby atmosphere and produces water - so to extract the Hydrogen out of that combustion product, you need more energy.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 02:15
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You where over reacting at best. I felt some moderation was in order.
I already know that there are problems with hydrogen storage and that you need more to go the same distance. This might just be an incorrect approach to the engine design. If you could run the Hydrogen mixture a lot more lean (like this Bourke Engine is supposed to be run) you MAY be able to get the hydrogen use down to something a bit more reasonable.
As for the delivery of the fuel, could you deliver it in a highly compressed form to keep it a liquid rather than cooling it down? I'm not sure if that's viable, but I know having a laser guided fuel arm at every servo definatly ISN'T viable.
Hydrogen IS being explored as an alternative to petrol by people far smarter than you or I. So going off on a tangent about how "the only reason you'd have hydrogen-powered cars is if they have fuel cells" was presumptuous.
You have some good points there, especially about delivery of fuel, but there's no need for the attitude. This is all interesting to discuss, even if it isn't viable, in the end. So no need to say the thread needs to be locked, and the poster banned (even if he does go off on a bit of an uninformed tangent).
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 02:28
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| thechuckster wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:12 |
burning hydrogen gas for energy is inefficient - very inefficient.
Weight-for-weight, burning your own farts would release more energy (as heat) than hydrogen.
The only reason you'd have hydrogen-powered cars is if they have fuel cells - gizmos that produce electricity from a chemical reaction - that drive electric motors.
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Regardless of whether the application is Fuel Cells or Internal combustion, cars will be transporting their Hydrogen fuel in SUPER-high pressure tanks, in liquid or near-liquid supercondensed gas form. The E.U's fuel cell testing facility has a concrete bunker for testing the tanks: 
Sure, the gas is volume-inefficient, but once it's crammed tight it starts making more sense. Building crash-safe high pressure tanks is currently one of the limiting factors.
As for the Bourke engine (Scotch Yoke??), 40kw/Litre sounds pathetic, but when you see that it's at 4000rpm it's actually pretty good. Crank it to 8,000Rpm Honda style (Yo!) and you're talking 80kw/Litre - which is as good as anything in production - better than 95% of current models actually. I could see it working well as a H8 configuration, as it'd basically be a power-cube ! ! (think 2 WRX Boxer-4's stacked on top of each other)
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 03:18
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That brings up another thing too. Why was this engine reaching peak power at 4000rpm? Will it be able to go any higher? Will the scotch yoke be able to take high torque for towing or sports cars? What about high RPM? Will the scotch yoke just explode at 8000rpm? Also, how's it deal with having 500cc per cyl, rather than 250ccs per cyl? with the reduction in thermal efficiency of the smaller chamber, does it lose some of it's power?
And explode tastic Hydrogen tanks. There's something I hadn't thought of. But then, that chinese 4WD that was on here a while back was pretty dangerous. Perhaps adding an explosive fuel tank would make it BETTER, as that way the passengers would have a quick death, not a slow painfull one.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 04:10
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High pressure storage hydrogen is not the way forward!!!
You are compressing the gas, ie wasting energy. This only compounds the inefficient production method. Yes, hydrogen has a high caloric value, but that is the exact reason it doesn't exist is a pure form.
As said previously, hydrogen storage is optimised in tanks filled with a chilled, metal catalysed fuel tank at relatively low pressures. The pressures required to store liquid hydrogen of a sufficient quantity for '300 mile range' (the american measure which they are designing this stuff around) are of the order of 5000psi. Yes, no typo, 5x10^3psi. This is not something that can be disputed.
Oh, and running the engine at 8000rpm? Not gonna happen. The reason it only runs to 4000rpm is the inherent frictional losses.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 04:35
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| 86tt wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 20:20 |
| Quote: |
I wanna see that prototypes A/F ratio curve, torque curve and power curve on a dyno graph.
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That would be a very good idea to request such thing from these researchers, but how are we going to measure the A/F ratio? Coz currently we use a delta sensor right? Do they go further than 18:1?
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well actually u dont even need to read the amount of O2. if u know the properties of the fuel ur using, and have readings of all other types of guess. u can actually calculate out the amount of O2 in there. i havent seen the pictures of what this bourke engine looks like, but im assuming its internal combustion.
damn i love fluid mechanics/thermodynamics 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:09
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:33 |
| thechuckster wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 10:12 |
burning hydrogen gas for energy is inefficient - very inefficient.
Weight-for-weight, burning your own farts would release more energy (as heat) than hydrogen.
The only reason you'd have hydrogen-powered cars is if they have fuel cells - gizmos that produce electricity from a chemical reaction - that drive electric motors.
These threads are nothing but bullshit/FUD spreaders - i vote BAN+LOCK.
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Oh realy? Okay then, that changes my view on things. Oh, you might want to send BMW an email telling them that, 'cuz they seem to be wasting a lot of money developing their H2R Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine powered car. Man if they knew about fart power they coulda saves a LOT of time and money!
How about you just not post about things you know nothing about eh? That'd be handy.
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he's right actually
burn hydrogen, and you lose most energy as heat.
put it (or carrier molecule like methane) thru a fuel cell and you get much higher efficiency
problem i think now is that most research is going into hot fuel cells (COF).. that run at very high temps (like 7-800C iirc) as opposed to the low temp polymer fuel cells...
all the car companies know that hot fuel cells are not the way to go, but still fund anyway cos it is closer to development...
edit: but as far as internal combustion engine goes.. H2 is a great way to make them cleaner.... no CO or CO2 emissions.. just NOx and water.... thats whay they are going ahead..
[Updated on: Wed, 26 October 2005 05:13]
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:17
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 11:57 |
Yes but when you burn methane what do you think is actually burning and releasing energy, its fucking hydrogen .
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actually... the result is 1 part CO2, and 2 parts H2O..
i cbf doing the thermodynamics, but if any budding chemists/material scientists want to work out the gibbs free energy, and enthalpy of these reations (assume room temp reactants and sayyy.. 500deg products) then we work out which releases more energy
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:21
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I'm not disputing that hydrogen fuel cells are a good way to go (although I know very little about them). I took issue with his attitude. Rather than telling us we're all stupid for talking about burning hydrogen, how about he let us know why it's not viable? It can't be THAT stupid an idea, if BMW actualy has a car up and running that burns hydrogen.
So why are hot fuel cells not as good as cold fuel cells?
And what kinda power outputs are we talking from a hydrogen engine? How much of the car would have to be devoted to fuel cells?
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:22
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:21 |
I'm not disputing that hydrogen fuel cells are a good way to go (although I know very little about them). I took issue with his attitude. Rather than telling us we're all stupid for talking about burning hydrogen, how about he let us know why it's not viable? It can't be THAT stupid an idea, if BMW actualy has a car up and running that burns hydrogen.
So why are hot fuel cells not as good as cold fuel cells?
And what kinda power outputs are we talking from a hydrogen engine? How much of the car would have to be devoted to fuel cells?
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The main problem i see with hydrogen fueled cars is the only currently economically viable production of it is still fossil fuels, so it really doesn't solve a problem
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:34
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 12:15 |
If you could run the Hydrogen mixture a lot more lean (like this Bourke Engine is supposed to be run) you MAY be able to get the hydrogen use down to something a bit more reasonable.
As for the delivery of the fuel, could you deliver it in a highly compressed form to keep it a liquid rather than cooling it down? I'm not sure if that's viable, but I know having a laser guided fuel arm at every servo definatly ISN'T viable.
Hydrogen IS being explored as an alternative to petrol by people far smarter than you or I. So going off on a tangent about how "the only reason you'd have hydrogen-powered cars is if they have fuel cells" was presumptuous.
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1) energy content is energy content. regardless of the AFR, you need a certain amount of "energy" to do a certain amount of "work". by running lean you are increasing the amount of "non-combatant" gas particles in the combustion chamber.. and it is the expansion from heat that makes motors go.. not the change in the number of molecules
i did a calc a while back.. roughly.. and when you burn petrol in air at the stoichiometric ratio, you only end up with a 5% increase in volume (at room temp). to get it to do any work, you need to convert the heat released into pressure..
which is another reason the bourke engine shits me... no temperature = no pressure = no work. higher temp means more pressure = more work = more efficiency.
which is why i do what i do materials for higher temperatures..
2. hydrogen pressure near liquid is very high...... much more convenient to deliver as liquid.... but of course then you need to keep it at liquid temperature... don't you need to use liquid helium or some such to liquify hydrogen? anyway. your normal freezer isn't goign to cut it... and what happens when the car sits in a parking lot on a summers dy.. the liquid H2 will heat up and it will heat up and the vapour pressure will increase... it wants to
binding of hydrogen to various things is best way to go so far, but needs high density of hydrogen storage, MUST be easily reversible, and must be safe.. ie stable.. no point releasing hydrogen if you don't have the containment for it.. and releasing it to atmosphere (think.. garage) is not safe.
3) H2 is a clean fuel for IC engines, regardless of the overall efficiency or whatnot... fuel cell is far more efficient and is the way to go... basically...
and the original poster is a psychotic nutter who needs medication and lots of tinfoil ban ban ban.. he'll only come back and post about the bourke engine with his pseudofacts again anyway...
ahhh, new forums are good.. no wookies
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:39
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:34 |
ahhh, new forums are good.. no wookies
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UMMMM hello i am on new forums
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Location:
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:45
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:21 |
It can't be THAT stupid an idea, if BMW actualy has a car up and running that burns hydrogen.
So why are hot fuel cells not as good as cold fuel cells?
And what kinda power outputs are we talking from a hydrogen engine? How much of the car would have to be devoted to fuel cells?
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as i said.. H2 is clean.. but it doesn't make it good
hot fuel cells need to be hot. you need to heat them up
HOT.. as said below.. 550-1000C.. they need to be heated to that temp BEFORE they work!!
to be honest, i think the way forward is with safe fuels like methanol... easy to handle and store etc etc..
as for cars... the more fuel cells you stack, the higher the voltage... and they would be used to power electric motors, and use batteries as a storage mechanism....
basically, think of a fuel cell as a methanol/hydrogen powered battery that never runs out....
the main problem with electric cars now is that you need massive batteries to get anywhere... stick in a 100-200kw fuel cell, and 4 50kw electric motors.. and you are gold
from http://www.cfcl.com.au/html/technology.htm
| Quote: |
Types and Applications of Fuel Cells
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Different types of fuel cells
This table summarises the six different fuel cell types (characterised by their membrane types) and their suitable uses. It is obtained from one of CFCL's presentations (see under Seminars and Presentations).
Types and Efficiency of Fuel Cells
Alkaline (AFC)
Need pure hydrogen
30-40% efficiency
small portable generators 500 watts - 5 kW
used by NASA in Gemini and Apollo moon missions
Only a few companies in field
Proton Exchange Membrane (PEMFC)
Need pure hydrogen
30-35% efficiency
generally for cars and busses ~>250kW
many major companies in field including Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, Ballard
Phosphoric Acid (PAFC)
Corrosive Acid electrolyte
35-42% efficiency
large stationary base load power >200 kW
reducing number of companies in field
Direct Methanol (DMFC)
Use toxic fuel
40-50+ % efficiency
micro compact unit
microsystems ie laptops <10 watts
major companies include Toshiba
Molten Carbonate (MCFC)
Complicated management of corrosive material
50+, 65+ % efficiency
large stationary base load power 200kW to megawatts
few companies in field
Solid Oxide (SOFC) - as produced by CFCL
Range of low cost, available fuels include natural gas and renewable fuels (biomethane, ethanol)
50+ (70+) % efficiency
550-1000 °C operating temperature
small to mid-size stationary power, larger for base load 500 watts to 350kW
increasing number of companies in field
For still further information and diagrams refer to pgs 15-17, Fuel Cells; Power for the 21 st Century, US Dept of Energy, 2004.
Current applications of fuel cells
Fuel cell type (electrolytic membrane)
Applications
Polymer electrolytic membrane (PEMFC)
Transport, portable appliances, distributed generation
Alkaline (AFC)
Transport, space missions
Phosphoric Acid (PAFC)
Medium distributed generation
Molten Carbonate (MCFC)
Medium to large generation
Solid Oxide (SOFC)
Small to medium distributed generation, transport auxiliary power units
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| Quote: |
The NASA alkaline fuel cell uses hydrogen and oxygen as fuel, and combines the two in electrochemical reactions. Out of this come three useful by-products: electricity to power the spacecraft; water for drinking and for cooling equipment; and heat to keep the astronauts from freezing in space.
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Location:
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:46
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the other problem is that this is a 100kw fuel cell
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:48
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:39 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:34 |
ahhh, new forums are good.. no wookies
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UMMMM hello i am a forums wookie:P
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is ok.. i hear ya heh heh....
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Location:
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 05:48
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:46 |
the other problem is that this is a 100kw fuel cell
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Lol even in a bus it doesn't leave too much room for passengers not to mention the obvious weight problems.
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 06:08
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Anyone familiar with GM's "Hy-Wire" working "proof-of-concept" ?
" The Hy-wire's fuel cell propulsion system is housed entirely in an 11-inch thick skateboard-like chassis. By-wire controls attached to the chassis through a single docking port use electrical signals instead of mechanical links of hydraulics to control steering, acceleration and braking."
Details: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hy-wire2.htm
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 06:48
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 15:46 |
the other problem is that this is a 100kw fuel cell
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Oookay, so that doesn't even seem as viable as a Hydrogen internal combustion engine to me.
Perhaps get that 100kw fuel cell down to about the size of a fuel tank (or half a fuel tank, as we need 3 of them for the 200kw gen5 Supra! ), and we'll be in buisness.
So how long will one of these last before it needs re-charging? How do you charge it? With electricity? Or do you have to re-fill it with hydrogen or something?
I like that Hy-Wire car. lol. Take the chassis off and ride it around town like a giant skateboard!
Perhaps we should get our hands on some dilithium crystals and build matter/anti-matter reactors for our cars! 0 to Warp1 in 6.5 seconds! LOL.
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 07:02
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Okay, according to the info on the Hy-Wire for fuel cells (or the ones used in this car anyway) requre you to store liquid hydrogen. That means the debate about hydrogen internal combustion engine storeage of hydrogen is rendered mute, as you have to do it anyway in a fuel cell car (although you need less).
I don't like the look of the electric controll.  I want my car to have direct input! I don't want some fussy computer thinking that turning the car to avoid that bus isn't the right thing to do! I also don't want a data overload leaving me unable to controll my car.
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 07:14
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 17:02 |
Okay, according to the info on the Hy-Wire for fuel cells (or the ones used in this car anyway) requre you to store liquid hydrogen. That means the debate about hydrogen internal combustion engine storeage of hydrogen is rendered mute, as you have to do it anyway in a fuel cell car (although you need less).
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i thought the debate was about whether you should burn hydrogen in a combustion chamber as opposed to use it in a fuel cell?
then it suddenly turned into how someone could store hydrogen in high pressure gaseous form?
i dont think anyone denied the fact that you needed liquid hydrogen for hydrogen-fuel-cells?
anyway... you're now realising that that non-combustive fuel-cell power is a sensible (if somewhat boring) thing?
| Quote: |
I don't like the look of the electric controll. I want my car to have direct input! I don't want some fussy computer thinking that turning the car to avoid that bus isn't the right thing to do! I also don't want a data overload leaving me unable to controll my car.
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as long as it doesn't run W2K or XP - so you're not prone to the occasional blue-screen-of-death - you should be safer.
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Melbourne
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
February 2005
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Location:
Land of Oz
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June 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 10:31
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Hi,
Hydrogen..... light blue touch-paper and stand well clear.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Campbelltown
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November 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 10:33
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| river wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 20:31 |
Hi,
Hydrogen..... light blue touch-paper and stand well clear.
seeyuzz
river
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River it has since been proven that the probalem was the material/plastic the skin of it was made out of not the hydrogen.
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Location:
Land of Oz
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 11:01
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Hi,
The "probalem" I think was the hydrogen/oxygen ratio, and it was highly combustible. Sure, the skin was also flammable, but the hydrogen was what started it. Besides, it wouldn't matter what the hull was made of - if you get the combustible ratio right and there's a spark then WHAMMO KABOOM!!!!
I won't let my kids smoke their bongs in their cars just in case there's fuel around and I certainly won't let them use them near a hydrogen device.
seeyuzz
river
PS: I also make them wear tinfoil hats when using the microwave and the TV/Video remote controls, and ensure they wear polaroid glasses when reading by with halogen lights.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 11:32
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 20:33 |
River it has since been proven that the probalem was the material/plastic the skin of it was made out of not the hydrogen.
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LOL, nice one rona....
if it was filled with helium like its contemparies... think it would have caught fire??
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 11:37
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| Shraka wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 16:48 |
Oookay, so that doesn't even seem as viable as a Hydrogen internal combustion engine to me.
Perhaps get that 100kw fuel cell down to about the size of a fuel tank (or half a fuel tank, as we need 3 of them for the 200kw gen5 Supra! ), and we'll be in buisness.
So how long will one of these last before it needs re-charging? How do you charge it? With electricity? Or do you have to re-fill it with hydrogen or something?
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do some research, i posted that as a joke
300kw worth of fuel cells? OMG what are you thinking??
300kw petrol engine only _just_ reached that output.
electric motor nearly ALWAYS pulls 300kw.. ie thats the current going thru the motor... think how much torque that is when the engine is only just starting to turn over.... also means you have less torque at higher speed, but at half speed, you have twice as much torque..
thus... you need far less electrical power as a pterol motor is rated at.... to get the same acceleration
recharging? they consume fuel, they produce electricity, they do not need recharging, just refueling.
not all fuel cells use hydrogen. do some research.
| Quote: |
Calling for this guys blood isn't in order here. Neither is asking for the thread to be locked
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86tt is a post troll
[Updated on: Wed, 26 October 2005 16:09]
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Location:
Sydney
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August 2004
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 12:56
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I wonder how you cope with real life oldcorolla, I'm sure you're a different person when you're around "real people", you're completely self-centered, and thinks that the world revolves around you and you're the smartest guy on the planet, posts real shit and have personal attacks on other people, in real life you'll probably get flatten within minutes, wonder how often you get into trouble? Wonder if you have any real friends, feel sorry for ya!
and you're so naive! If any government agency or even private investigators wanted to locate any of us on this forum, do you think they'll have any trouble? Do you think I have anything to hide? haha!
I've posted the thread to discuss if such engine existed, and by the look of it there aren't even anyone that deals with these engine in Australia, do I look like I have other motives, but then this oldcorolla comes along, attacks people with his head in his arse thinking he's the smartest guy in the world (lives in his own imaginative world) and wants to be such a hero and want to show the world he knows more than anybody else in this universe and he's the one to decide what technology works and what doesn't, who is allowed to talk and who aren't! If you are as smart as you think you are, you'll be the one developing and inventing the technology, most likely working in the government sector, but are you? Wake up man!
[Updated on: Wed, 26 October 2005 12:58]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 13:40
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yeah, he seems a mite critical for someone who has a picture of a flying car for his avatar.
and its red, i bet olcorollass is a closet moller skycar fan!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Videos and pictures of a running Bourke Engine...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 13:54
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| shinybluesteel wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 23:40 |
yeah, he seems a mite critical for someone who has a picture of a flying car for his avatar.
and its red, i bet olcorollass is a closet moller skycar fan!
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dude.. it's not flying.. it's landing
i wish it was my car, but no... it's a well known Canadian car..
LOL, i always wondered what would happen in the US with the Moller... so many ppl flying home drunk.. and of course it's construction would be famred out to lowest bidder....
if they were givign them away.. i'd have one
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