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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Sun, 20 November 2005 09:46
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Howdy. This is mostly general but sorta techy, so I stuck it here. Mods, feel free to shift it if I'm wrong.
The time has come to plan my brake upgrades on the RA23. I've decided to use FC RX7 calipers due to their small size, low weight and low cost. The difficulty comes with the choice in hubs and rotors. I like longchamp xr4 rims, but I've only ever encountered then in 4x114.3 PCD. After scouring brembo and DBA catalogues, I know of no possible way to retain the stock RA23 hubs and have rotors of a decent size. Unless I have missed something, there is no toyota hub with four studs that will do the job I want, so it seems that I've gotta convert to 5 stud with crown hubs, or go for custom hubs($$$).
Does anyone know if it is possible to get longchamp xr4's made in 5 stud patterns? Failing this, what are some old school 15" rims on the market with 5 stud patterns? I don't really wanna go for simmons rims, 'cos they are kinda cliched.
[Updated on: Tue, 22 November 2005 09:09]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth.
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:06
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as much as im heavily opposed to it, people drill out suitably sized 5 stud rotors to 4 stud...
-sigh-
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:09
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Its perfectly fine to redrill the stud patern on a rotor.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:11
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better yet, get blanks from dba and get them drilled in the pattern you require!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:18
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NB: dba will not always have blanks available, unless you're willing to wait and pay.
there were none available for me, so I just bought some 5 stud and got them redrilled. there's tons of meat inbetween all the stud holes, and my engineer reckons there would be no safety dramas.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:23
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Sweet! That is the first confirmation I have received that redrilling rotors is neither dodgy nor illegal!
So it's possible to get a blank of a given diameter, and desired offset, and have the hub fastening holes drilled, and the hub centre hole?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:25
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not exactly.
from dba it's possible to get a blank (no stud holes or centre holes), but you need to order it for a specific model (ie FC rx-7). you can't just ask for a 290x28mm rotor offset +16mm.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 10:26
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Its only possible to get blanks if they are actually made by DBA. Most of their "high performance" rotor are made by Brembo and they wont supply blanks.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth.
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 13:14
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| Cool1 wrote on Sun, 20 November 2005 18:26 |
Its only possible to get blanks if they are actually made by DBA. Most of their "high performance" rotor are made by Brembo and they wont supply blanks.
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is this true?  to 4000 series rotors are brembo made and such?
interesting news 
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 22:38
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I'm not sure about their 4000 series, but my S2000 rotors are made by Brembo.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Sun, 20 November 2005 22:49
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Hey Tricky, who are you going to get to make the caliper mount? Assuming they are in Canberra I owuld be interested to know. Also what diamter/thickness rotors are you planning to use?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 01:00
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I haven't scoped out a machinist yet, but I'll probably check it out soonish. I haven't planned the bracket yet either. Rotor wise, I was thinking 280-310mm sort of diameter and 25mm thick. I want something vented and slotted. From memory, FC RX7 calipers are 286mm, so I might do that. I also fancy the S2K rotors cool1 is using, and also from honda, brembo make some 286mm accord rotors with four mounting holes and 64mm hub hole diameter, like RA23 items, just bigger. I'd have to check the offset to confirm whether making the bracket for these would be feasible though.
When I have some spare time, I'll pick up a spare strut/hub, take the trusty brembo catalogue and plan out the bracket. When I do this, anyone who wants profiles, or anyone who wants to go into a group buy of brackets is welcome to jump on the bandwagon.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 01:03
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Cool.
Are you planning to go disc over hub or keep it like the original setup and bolt the disc to the back of the hub?
If you are thinking of the latter then let me know as I have measured up some potential options that may be worth looking at.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 01:20
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If I am redrilling a rotor, I'd prefer to go in the original configuration, but if I can get blanks in the rotor I want, I'll go disc over hub. It also depends on the available offsets, and consequently how easy it will be to make the caliper mounting bracket. The more I think about it, the better the S2K option looks. The problem with this is the size of the hub hole (larger), and that S2K rotors aren't available as blanks. Could be worth researching the accord option further.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 05:37
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contrary to popular belief there is actually quite a WIDE range of 5 stud low offset 15x7,8,9 inch wheels available in 5 stud, and they are markedly cheaper than the 4 stud variants as they arent as in high demand as they dont fit on AE86's
check out yahoo japan, im actually looking for a set of 15x10 -20 Longchamps XR4's myself at the moment
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 07:22
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| MR 1JZ wrote on Mon, 21 November 2005 16:37 |
check out yahoo japan, im actually looking for a set of 15x10 -20 Longchamps XR4's myself at the moment
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BIG mothers! I had no idea that they made them that big!
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 07:50
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Update on the honda accord rotors. They have a diameter of 282mm, they have the same centering hole diameter as RA23 rotors, and they also have a four bolt hub pattern. AND...  They have an offset of 47mm. This means that a caliper bracket will be easy(ish) to make! Of course, this may not be necessary if I can track down a set of 5 stud 15x7 +-(buggeredifiknowwhatoffset) longchamp xr4's, and someone crazy enough to import them to Australia. If so, I'll just do the crown hubs/S2K rotors.
EDIT: Another bit of news for the 4 stud front: A number of big diameter calipers are out there with relatively small hub holes. To fit the RA23 hub, the ID has to be <=64mm such that it can slip over or be drilled out. One pair I found were lexus rotors, but they had a thickness of 28mm... Too thick! After a bit more looking, I found something very promising, although availability in Australia (and cost) may be questionable. They are:
Maserati Shamal vented rotors:
-diameter = 300mm
-Thickness = 22mm (maybe too thin?)
-offset = 46mm
-hub hole = 60mm
Also,
RENAULT Alpine A610 3.0i V6 Turbo
-diameter = 300mm
-Thickness = 24mm (1mm less than S2K rotor)
-offset = 43.5mm
-hub hole = 61mm
No chance of finding those rotors in a wreckers though!
[Updated on: Mon, 21 November 2005 09:00]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth.
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Mon, 21 November 2005 10:34
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keep us up on how this goes on mate...id like to know how to do it one day or another 
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims
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Tue, 22 November 2005 09:03
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OK. Found a few more combos today.
Honda Integra (2L):
-diameter = 300mm
-thickness = 25mm
-offset = 47.5mm
-hub hole = 64mm
Honda NSX (rear rotor):
-diameter = 303mm
-thickness = 23mm (1mm thicker than FC rotors)
-offset = 32.5mm
-hub hole = 64mm
Ford Focus (2L):
-diameter = 300mm
-thickness = 24mm
-offset = 43.5mm
-hub hole = 63.6mm
A couple more FC caliper options are feasible. Using Subaru WRX rotors could work, although the offset is larger, so the bracket would need more meat, and it could foul things(maybe). Some other options are things such as nissan Z32 calipers with camry sportivo or MY05 STi rotors, but the nissan calipers are a bit bulkier.
At this stage, I'm inclined to think that the NSX rotors would be preferable. For these, only four holes need to be drilled, as the hub clearance hole matches the RA23 item. The only question remaining is the acceptability of a rear rotor on the front... Shouldn't be a problem, because the rotor is no thinner than a front rotor in any place, and as such is structurally sound. 23mm might well be an ok width for the calipers also, as the FC rotor is 22mm stock. Shouldn't be a major drama to space the caliper by 1mm though.
And I assume the rotor has to be snug on the hub? ie, it wouldn't be satisfactory to use a 68mm rotor on a 64mm hub? Seems dodgy to me, but if for some strange reason it wasn't, then Audi S4 rotors would work well in this application also.
I think I need to see an engineer...
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 10:03
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You cant space the calipers by only 1mm. There is no way to seal the internal fluid channel with a 1mm spacer.
And no you cant use a 68mm rotor on a 64mm hub. If you look at the link in my sig you'll see some pictures of the spacer in my calipers. These are about the minimum thickness you can use.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 11:24
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Just as I suspected on both fronts. So you'd have 3mm spacers for S2000 calipers? So my options now are source some maserati shaman calipers and have all holes redrilled, but not space the caliper, or Integra 300mm calipers with four holes redrilled and the caliper spaced as per cool1's. I don't really want to overspace the calipers, 'cos I don't want specs to fall below OEM, thus encouraging wear and sloppy tolerances.
Another reason to pursue this 4 stud path has surfaced. I started doing research on my proposed S13 rear end --> RA23 setup, and if I use the S13 rear brake/hub combo, I end up with 4x114.3 at the back too... Of couse, it seems this is easily changed with S14 hubs to 5x114.3.
cool1, when you rebuilt your calipers with the spacers, did you use thin gaskets, or did you spray the mating surfaces with hylomar, or both... Or something completely different... I can't really tell from the pictures, but whatever the method, those galleries have a fair bit of pressure in them!
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 11:38
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The calipers have small o-ring around the gallery on both ends of the calipers. The o-ring sits in a recess that is made in the alloy and this is the reason you cant use a thin spacer. You have to be able to machine a recess in the spacers to fit a second o-ring.
Does that make sense? I've had a few drinks so everything is clear to me 
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 11:56
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lol! So you just mirrored the recess in the alloy spacer, and it ended up the same as it started sort of thing. I understand perfectly (or I'm so wrong it seems to make sense ), so obviously you haven't had enough to drink . Guess it's time for me to get some calipers and start experimenting!
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:13
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Yes I mirrored the recess in the alloy spacer. So now instead of having 2 o-rings in each caliper, I have 4!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:32
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| Cool1 wrote on Tue, 22 November 2005 20:03 |
... And no you cant use a 68mm rotor on a 64mm hub...
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you could get a ring machined up to go over the hub so the disk is then hubcentric?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:35
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You could, but theres nothing to hold the ring on the back of the hub.
If it were on the front you could rely on the wheel holding the ring in position(if you were using wheels with the correct hub center).
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:42
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| Cool1 wrote on Tue, 22 November 2005 23:13 |
Yes I mirrored the recess in the alloy spacer. So now instead of having 2 o-rings in each caliper, I have 4!
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Must be 100% better now bro!!!!11!!
Hmmm... Is that legal to put a spacer in? It would be floating, so it wouldn't really be the safest thing in the world. And you couldn't weld it to the hub, 'cos you'd end up with a useless pile of metal, and welding it to the rotor... Dunno... Rotors are high carbon steel with some molybdenum I think, so you could probably TIG a spacer on and grind it flush... Still might be a bit dodgy...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:45
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| Cool1 wrote on Tue, 22 November 2005 22:35 |
You could, but theres nothing to hold the ring on the back of the hub.
If it were on the front you could rely on the wheel holding the ring in position(if you were using wheels with the correct hub center).
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woops .. got fixated on this disk-over-hat thing...
tricky: i would not even contemplate welding a brake disk.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:49
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tricky: as chuck said, disc over hat is fine as long as you have a hub-centric wheel to hold the spacer in place (which is what I've done).. but on the back? you'll need to make sure it's the correct size centre bore or smaller.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:52
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Yeah just find a rotor with a smaller center hole and get it machined out.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Tue, 22 November 2005 12:52
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| thechuckster wrote on Tue, 22 November 2005 23:45 |
tricky: i would not even contemplate welding a brake disk.
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I was actually hoping someone would say that!!
It would be just as easy to do rotor over hub, but since the RA23 hub was designed as a hub over rotor, I'll keep it that way.
My only two options now are the 300mm integra rotor, which just so happens to have the same hub hole as the original rotor, but it will require the caliper spacer (same width as S2K rotor).
And the maserati rotor, which would need 3mm machined out of the hole, but no caliper spacer. I have a feeling the decision will be made for me, 'cos I don't fancy my chances of getting the maserati rotor in Australia.
[Updated on: Tue, 22 November 2005 13:01]
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Wed, 23 November 2005 08:36
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um, i have been searching for a suitable aet of rotors to use with my s14 callipers.
i have just been looking through the DBA catalouge and according to that, RA23 celicas have a centre hole size of 73mm not 64mm like you are saying. does the listing have a mistake in it???
just wanted to bring this to your attention.....
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: old school 5 stud rims [tech now. RA23 brake convos]
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Wed, 23 November 2005 12:04
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Fuck it... Brembo says 64mm, but I just noticed they also say 64mm for TA22 rotors. Soooooooo BREMBO STUFFED UP! My DBA catalogue doesn't have a listing for RA23 rotors...
Thanks for bringing that to my attention... It doesn't make any difference, 'cos I'd be redrilling the hub hole anyway, but it does widen my options! Outside with the calipers I go! ...maybe that can wait until tomorrow.
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