| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
|
|
I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Wed, 07 December 2005 22:48
|
 |
I've got a spare 3sge gen 1 with my new st162 project,
But half half on what I could do with the engine,
The first idea was to get a Port done to the head, reground the cams, finish off the exhaust with extractors (it currently has 2" Exhaust). I'd be hopin for around 160-170hp from this project and still try to keep the car drivable on the road..
I'm tryin to stick away with turbo if I can.
Just asking what you would suggest to work on the engine and how drivability might affect each option?
Thank you again this is much appreciated!
|
|
|
Location:
Melburn!
Registered:
June 2005
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Wed, 07 December 2005 23:09
|
|
|
Have you looked at going gen 2 or 3? Alot of the work is already done for you there. Also with cams I believe you wont be able to get regrinds, you will have to get a new set, but thats just what I have read. I have a gen 2 in a TA23 and I am getting about 110hp ATW, replacing the cat to help it breath better because the last one had collapsed.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 04:54
|
|
how big is your budget?
did u want that at the wheels or at the cranks?
regrinds may not work. contact Wade and see if they can help.
what else will you do? management etc, SAFC and SITC wont be sufficent in some aspects.
what head work? what budget?
same valves? valve job?
i think you need to truly plan what you want, and how much you have to spend.
|
|
|
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 05:57
|
|
no offence adrian, but doing all that work to a gen 1 3sge may be a bit silly.
If you want a high powered n/a 3sge... find a beams or gen 3 halfcut from an st202 celica. It would most likely be alot cheaper, and alot easier, and will save you alot of effort. You also have the option of getting a lsd E series gearbox if you are lucky.
But if you have your heart set on building an 160hp gen 1, then the best thing you could do would be to get a decent complete engine management system and get it properly tuned on good fuel.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 11:03
|
|
| Matt-itude wrote on Thu, 08 December 2005 16:57 |
But if you have your heart set on building an 160hp gen 1, then the best thing you could do would be to get a decent complete engine management system and get it properly tuned on good fuel.
|
i.e no SAFC or S-ITC 
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 12:14
|
|
| TRD-ST162 wrote on Thu, 08 December 2005 09:48 |
...
But half half on what I could do with the engine...
|
Boat anchor? If you don't have a boat, then maybe a doorstop? 
lol, nah man - you already know what you have to do and it doesn't look like you're gonna get any fresh ideas here. Having done the conversion, I reckon you could spend 3/4 the money I did on the swap and easily get a gen 1 to go harder than a stock gen 3. Finding the parts and getting it set up properly will be expensive (ie. no dodgy TAFE tune jobs), but in the end you'll be on a winner.
The difference between building an engine up and doing a conversion is that you'll probably have to sacrifice everyday drivability for performance. I'm talking about things like lumpy idle, hard to start when its cold, peaky power delivery, poor fuel economy etc. All of these things could be tuned out, but you'll be more out of pocket and another compromise will have to be made. On the pro side you'll be blazing a new path and doing something whicn nobody else has done. I'm sure a lot of people would be eating their words come dyno day.
On the other hand the gen 3 will perform as well as a tuned gen 1 and still behave like a standard car around town while maintaining a high standard of reliability. I clock up a lot of K's which is why I decided to take this path. Eventually when you decide you want to go faster it's a little easier to source aftermarket performance parts for the Gen 2 / 3 as the engine also came in the MR-2 which has better aftermarket support than the Celica. Manafacturers such as TRD, HKS, Wade etc. still stock parts for them as the engine is still relatively new. But again, costs and compromises will be a consideration.
So yeah...
My 2c.
- Andy
BTW: My car isn't really a good example to compare to as I've still got bugs to iron out. I've worked out why I'm gettting such crap fuel economy and I need to finish off things like the intake and exhaust. I reckon she's still got a bit more to give. 
|
|
|
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 12:39
|
|
| da_horse wrote on Thu, 08 December 2005 19:03 |
| Matt-itude wrote on Thu, 08 December 2005 16:57 |
But if you have your heart set on building an 160hp gen 1, then the best thing you could do would be to get a decent complete engine management system and get it properly tuned on good fuel.
|
i.e no SAFC or S-ITC
|
touche 
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 12:41
|
|
Let's start a list:
A lot of this I'm just hypothesising as I have no first hand experience with these kind of mods. I'll update as people come up with stuff.
Port and Polish
Pro: Increased flow, more efficient combustion. Smooth power delivery?
Con: Expensive to get done properly, labour intensive. No adverse effect on drivablity? May have issues with TVIS.
Raising Compression
Pro: Higher compression ratio, more power from teh stroke.
Con: Increased stresses on reciprocating parts (in the long term)? Tendancy to ping?
Aftermarket Cams
Pro: Better breathing, bigger intake charge, more power.
Con: Sacrifice idle quality, increase fuel consumption, powerband moved upwards and low RPM power lost?, standard ECU may be unable to cope. Daily driving may become a pain in the ass.
Advancing base timing
Pro: Ignition earlier on the combustion stroke, more power across the rev range.
Con: harder to start on cold mornings, tendancy to ping, may confuse standard ECU.
Aftermarket ECU
Pro: Much more flexibility than standard ECU. Ability to retune after adding mods, possibility to have separate maps for daily driving or max power, ability to add aftermarket components that the factory ECU may not be able to run (eg. larger injectors, coil pack ignition).
Con: Normally would have to sacrifice things like idle speed control, ability to drive other components such as A.C, Cruise etc. In the relatively simple / oldskool ST162 probably not such a big deal. Mostly illegal unless engineered / emissions tested... but so are most modifications. 
Intake / Exhaust
Everyone's been there and done that.
Knife edging crankshaft / lighter flywheel
Pro: lighter reciprocating mass = freer spinning engine = higher revs = higher peak power. 10 000 RPM also = porn.
Cons: rediculously expensive, torque is sacrificed.
I'm pretty brain dead atm, but might also be worth thinking about upgrading valves / valve springs, injectors, ignition (plugs, leads, dizzy / coil / coil pack) systems, full balance / blue-printing and so on and so on.
|
|
|
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 13:23
|
|
Higher compression, ignition advance, larger cams... these are all going to lead to higher combustion temps, which is a very good thing for making power, but you will most definately need to be running high octane fuel.. 98+RON and you will most definately need a good ecu with a proper tune as i can't stress this point enough. Becuase with these power gains comes at the cost of detonationif your not very carefull , and potentially reducing the life of your engine.
But i think you may find...
drivability + high powered gen 1 3sge = sqrt(-1)
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 13:30
|
|
lol - DAMN YOU i!!! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!
(maths nerd joke for the non-nerds among us)
|
|
|
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: I am Working a 3sge Gen 1, What would u do?
|
Thu, 08 December 2005 13:36
|
|
yer im sorry, that was pretty ghey
my point was, that its highly unlikely...
|
|
|
