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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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 how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 25 January 2003 14:18
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heya ppl
jst wondering how much better the 20v blacktop is?
what are the diffs?  thanx for putting up with my lack of knowledge!
also what is availability like? anyone know? and price? lol
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 25 January 2003 14:30
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Black top is 11:1 compression ratio.
and silver top is 10.5 i think.
Black top uses a MAP sensor, silver top use a AFM.
(that means black top can easily get rip of the airbox,where the silver top can't without a aftermarket ECU)
A silver top is very cheap these days, u'd find a halfcut at about 1800.
Black top is consider a bit more rare. and because they are newer,they are more expensive. And some of the black top comes with super strut suspension, 6 speed gearbox. So these will raises the front cut price a lot.
I remember someone had quoted a 6 speed gearbox alone for $2000+.
Black top price varys from 3000-5000.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 25 January 2003 14:30
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hope this helps
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 25 January 2003 14:31
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oh yeah, the black top is about 5-10hp more than the silver top.
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Location:
Hornsby, N.S.W
Registered:
September 2002
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 Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sun, 26 January 2003 00:37
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the black top is good, they are very quick, but very expensive. bang for bucks would gring you to the silvertop, personally the silver top is a much better looking motor, just due to the colour of the rocker cover.
JUZZO
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 02:29
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brining back an old topic... but atm i am lookin at an sx with a 20v blacktop. how can i tell the blacktop apart from a normal 20v with a resprayed head? dumb question i know..
also the 20v blacktop i am looking at is still attached to the stock 5spd.. a bad thing?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 04:49
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I don't mean to stir up controversy here, but juzzo84... what makes you say they are very quick? I know two people with 20V's that weren't that impressed.
One is in a Sprinter which ran 16.3 and the other was in a Seca, which if I remember ran 16.2... certainly not 'very quick' by anyone's standards. Hell, you'd still get pasted by your average yellow-cap-wearing V6 Commodore driver.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 06:39
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The Black top has lighter parts and can rev higher.
However, if you plan to work the engine, better off starting with a silver top.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sutho/Hills NSW
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 08:21
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poit: its just the cover...put a blacktop cover on a silvertop and you get 10-15 more hp.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 10:02
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| Quote: |
Admittedly the thing probably weighs less than a feather.
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Precisely. They suck in any real-world application. Our friend here is contemplating one in an SX... the guy I know had one in an Seca (also the SX), and as stated it ran low 16's.
A KE25 is a whole different kettle of fish. But even then there are better engines to be had in a car of that size
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 13:28
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Are you being serious?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 13:46
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No, I'm just pulling your leg. I'm the chairman of the Anti-20V Committee of Australia and will do anything to tarnish the reputation of this fantastic engine. 
Of course I'm being serious. Go out and buy a 20V, by all means. I have nothing to gain or lose by you buying - or not buying - one. But I'm solidly stating that the 20V is one of the most highly overrated engines available.
For a naturally aspirated 1.6 litre engine it is one of the best available. But at the end of a day the old addage is true - you can't polish a turd. Start with a real motor, not a little toy one that costs twice its worth.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 13:51
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Well, I don't have a 20V, but I wouldn't trade my AE92 4age for any other engine in the world.
It's all about balance dude, your rides to big for this tougue, take it back to the farm. 
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Location:
Hornsby, Sydney
Registered:
October 2002
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Fri, 25 July 2003 14:39
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Well, my application is ovbious, but you are 100% correct about the gearing and peoples assumptions.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 26 July 2003 02:51
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so physically its just the cover which serperates the 2? can i tell if a silvertop has just been painted black?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 26 July 2003 04:41
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No, that's not the only difference
The Black Top has lighter parts, that's how it achieves the higher redline.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 26 July 2003 06:11
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hmm.. one is afm and one is map sensored? am i correct? which is which?
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Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 26 July 2003 09:42
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hey 7m-brisane... wats with---> Hell, you'd still get pasted by your average yellow-cap-wearing V6 Commodore driver??? my 16v is quicker than those bogan driven v6 crumpledores... so how do u explain that one..and no my engine is not some crazy worked off its nut thing that dont idle below 1500rpm..it happily likes to idle at 900rpm...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 26 July 2003 10:38
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hey 7m-brisane... wats with---> Hell, you'd still get pasted by your average yellow-cap-wearing V6 Commodore driver??? my 16v is quicker than those bogan driven v6 crumpledores... so how do u explain that one..and no my engine is not some crazy worked off its nut thing that dont idle below 1500rpm..it happily likes to idle at 900rpm...
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Said commodore driver probably runs low to flat 16's. If it was manual it would be in the 15's (although only just).
Basic maths suggests that if my friends cars run low 16's, and commodores run that time or faster... then my comment would be true. A lot of it is in power delivery too. The 20v is a revvy motor with high peak power... not much good on the street but probably fantastic in a Clubman. Even a heavily warmed over atmo 20v would struggle to make 170hp. Not much good on the street.
As I said, they're not a completely useless motor... but certainly no good in a street car unless you start talking forced induction. In which case you're talking a fair amount of dollars and you shoudl have just bought a better engine in the first place.
Oh, and I didn't ever say that a 20v will not idle. Sounds like you're getting a little defensive that someone disagrees with your choice of motor
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Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sat, 26 July 2003 10:49
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7m-brisbane wrote:Oh, and I didn't ever say that a 20v will not idle. Sounds like you're getting a little defensive that someone disagrees with your choice of motor...
dude.. i think u need to read the post a bit better... maybe open ur eyes 
i said i have a 16Vnot a 20v .. i have a stock seca sx... and it is quicker than v6 commodores and falcons... and i think u'll find that a 20v is quicker than a 16v..
so yea.. think about it man.. maybe those v6 crumpledores come out quicker from the factory than those in new south wales... becoz down here they have nothin on a 20v..or even a 16v for that matter
oh wait i think i even beat one in my sisters single cam 12valve 1.6l 68kw@flywheel proton persona.. hmmmmm maybe those yellow hats they sell in queensland gives ur car an extra 50 horsepower???
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sun, 27 July 2003 09:07
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maybe those yellow hats they sell in queensland gives ur car an extra 50 horsepower
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Now who's the one who's not reading? I said nothing of me having a V6 Commodore, nor anything about owning a yellow cap.
Anyway mate just drop it, you're not going to convince me that they're a good street engine and I'm not going to convince you that they suck.
I'm sorry I insulted a Toyota engine. May the almighty headgasket god rain down upon me with brutal fire. Believe me, I used to be the same as you and I thought that the 4A was the be-all and end-all of performance engines. I even started off with a 6A, and thought that was great. Then I got a 4AFE and thought that was great.
Next I got a stock turbo car which reeled off quarter mile passes two seconds faster than the above modified Corolla. Now I'm in a modified turbo car that reels off 13's and I think that's slow.
Eventually you will see the light. The street is all about cubes and forced induction - one day, one day
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sun, 27 July 2003 11:25
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Even a heavily warmed over atmo 20v would struggle to make 170hp
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Ummm.... 7M hate to burst your bubble, but a mildy warmed 20V, running an A/F efi, I'd say a shaved + ported head, made 120Kw's at all four wheel (AWD) a couple of weeks ago, infront of half this forum.... I have also seen 150Kw from similar mod's and then 170kw when the guy change his cams, STILL USING A STANDARD BOTTEM END!! Wanna see a Heavily warm version? There's two on the way... ones mine, the other is his. Ones for Rally, the other is track, both run on PULP and can quite easily been driven on the street, and mine has too! OK turbo's, cubes etc will always rule in the HP area's but everyone has them, and it's boodly easy to get HP from them ie More Boost = more effective compression = more HP, but when it come's down to classes, a F/I motor will always be considered 1.7 times the engines capacity, 1.6l s/c is infact a 2.7l engine... In the end if you want a 13sec 1/4 car, well fine, turbo's etc are the go, if you want a reasonable street, forced induction are always the way.
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sun, 27 July 2003 14:48
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7M hate to burst your bubble, but a mildy warmed 20V, running an A/F efi, I'd say a shaved + ported head, made 120Kw's at all four wheel (AWD) a couple of weeks ago, infront of half this forum....
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anyone would realize the 4x4 20v did not make much power at all (id say lucky to be 80kw) which is good... just not near 120kw
the thing runs 17sec 1/4s
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sun, 27 July 2003 15:24
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i rekon the 4AGE 20 valve is nice
sounds nice with the quad TB
revs nice n high
good with VVT in low revs
its not made for your typical "red light grand prix" bolt-on-army kids in hotted up F/I nissans etc
its an engine made for racing i figure
not "streetracing", real racing, on a track, with officials and times and performance
but then again if your in for the wanky f/i stuff (bov's, intercoolers, large exhausts (or 'zorsts for you kids) id suggest every turboboys dream, the SR20DET
/end rant
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Sun, 27 July 2003 23:49
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This was at the last dyno day, about 2 weeks ago... 120Kw @ the wheels, have a look at the record's section. Bad 1/4 times can come down to no torque, bad gearing. a good tuned, No modded, 20V pull's 88kw standard. Dyno Dave, had been tuning that thing the week before.
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Registered:
September 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 02:55
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Gday,
Just want to add my 2 cents for those considering putting a 20v into an ae92 sx.
I did this over a year ago, and couldn't be more pleased with the engine. Those that were 'upset' with the engine have themself to blame for not doing enough research.
To say that the 20v is a 'highly overrated' engine i believe is untrue. I challenge anyone to find a stock 1.6 4cyl N/A engine for $1500(or even less) that will go as well as this one.
I am a toyota driver that loves to have a nice strong responsive reliable smooth revving engine with a bit of balls to bounce the tacho around and i would recommend a 20v to anyone else who is like me.
Hell, if you want a car to drive in a straight line, go get an old supra and whack a 2j into it, don't bother with a 1.6 fwd car. Although this isn't to say that the 20v is slow in a straight line, but horses for courses i reckon.
Catchas,
Seeks.
PS, as for the bit about not being able to beat v6 commonwhores, maybe those 20v drivers shifted from second to fourth, or just couldn't drive/launch.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 04:53
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Here's the quick and short story.
Traffic light GP:
GZE. 20V has trouble keeping the 16Vs off its tail in general day to day driving.
Track:
20V. Roles are reversed with the GZEs having trouble keeping the 16Vs off their tail.
It all depends on your driving style. Me, I reckon I'd prolly be more happy with a 20V than a GZE.
As for Black Top vs Silver Top. You'll find that there's bugger-all difference between them. Certainly not worth the extra money.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 06:19
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errhhh i think you guys just went off the topic here
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 10:11
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| Quote: |
Ummm.... 7M hate to burst your bubble, but a mildy warmed 20V, running an A/F efi, I'd say a shaved + ported head, made 120Kw's at all four wheel (AWD) a couple of weeks ago, infront of half this forum.... I have also seen 150Kw from similar mod's and then 170kw when the guy change his cams, STILL USING A STANDARD BOTTEM END!!
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I find those figures very hard to believe.
Even 120kW is pretty 'out there', especially through a 4WD system. Now you mention that the same modifications on another engine wrought 150kW? And then with cams 170kW? AT THE WHEELS?
I don't think I need to point out to the majority of readers that 170KW at the wheels is over 220 rear wheel horsepower! Even through a front wheel drive system, assuming a driveline loss of 15%, that's 260hp at the flywheel.
To put another spin on it - that is 160 horsepower PER LITRE!!! From an atmo engine???
I'm sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. Where can I get some of that sh!t you're smoking?
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 10:19
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| Johnny wrote on Sun, 27 July 2003 21:25 |
| Quote: |
Even a heavily warmed over atmo 20v would struggle to make 170hp
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Ummm.... 7M hate to burst your bubble, but a mildy warmed 20V, running an A/F efi, I'd say a shaved + ported head, made 120Kw's at all four wheel (AWD) a couple of weeks ago, infront of half this forum.... I have also seen 150Kw from similar mod's and then 170kw when the guy change his cams, STILL USING A STANDARD BOTTEM END!! Wanna see a Heavily warm version? blah blah blah....
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You do know a stock WRX has about 98AWKW don't you? Werent you the one that the dyno operaters scratched there heads about?
Don't be a dyno queen and quote stupid dyno numbers that are just in plan error, go run down the qtr and show us the MPH.
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 10:29
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gee now its driberling isnt it TRD S Africa spent heaps on both the 20v engines and could only get 185 hp and that was the blacktop 1 and thats at the fly wheel and its not kws
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 10:34
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Just another spin......
A works 3SGE produces around 280 hp. It runs 13:1 comp and has some very big cams indeed, and no doubt all the other NA neccessities. It has 400 cc more than a 20V 4AGE.
Formula Atlantics 4AGEs put out about 230-240 hp. A 260 hp pentavalver would have to be pretty full house!!!
Do I sound skeptical? 
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 10:56
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Also, Sorry but I find this amusing..
With that power and the weight of the car it should be pulling mid to high 13's with about 101mph.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 12:31
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Umm... yeah OK.
The blacktop has slightly bigger throttle bodies and different cam timing and maybe bigger exhaust ports but I'm not sure on that last one.
But I went for the silvertop 'cause it has 3000 Hp and I just want to drag race VL turbos....YEEHAA!!!
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 12:34
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Sorry, couldn't help it.
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Mon, 28 July 2003 12:59
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no need to be sorry
nothing better than pullin away from a 20v when u only got 50kw
| Quote: |
Ummm.... 7M hate to burst your bubble, but a mildy warmed 20V, running an A/F efi, I'd say a shaved + ported head, made 120Kw's at all four wheel (AWD) a couple of weeks ago, infront of half this forum.... I have also seen 150Kw from similar mod's and then 170kw when the guy change his cams, STILL USING A STANDARD BOTTEM END!! Wanna see a Heavily warm version? blah blah blah....
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i was going to write back to to this but i wasnt gunna waist my time... im glad im not the only 1 around here that has trouble with that figure (i had trouble with it when it made 86kw)
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 07:22
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my mates black top makes 87 kws at the back wheels so thats about right
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Location:
Hornsby, N.S.W
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 07:52
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| 7M-Brisbane wrote on Fri, 25 July 2003 14:49 |
I don't mean to stir up controversy here, but juzzo84... what makes you say they are very quick? I know two people with 20V's that weren't that impressed.
im refering to the comparison of the standard corolla 4ac to the 20v silvertop.
One is in a Sprinter which ran 16.3 and the other was in a Seca, which if I remember ran 16.2... certainly not 'very quick' by anyone's standards. Hell, you'd still get pasted by your average yellow-cap-wearing V6 Commodore driver.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 09:59
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Hey Guys, I just thought id put in my 2 cents worth. Last year I bought a Silver Top 20 Valve engine from a bloke who raced dirt buggies. He also had another silver top 20 valve which he had taken out the buggy there.It had spun a bearing in the motor but told me that this had Ross forged pistons(BIG DOLLARS!), port & polished head and port matched throttle bodies and 304 degree TRD cams. It had also been modified to fit standard 4AGE head gaskets instead of 20 valve ones. ( A whole lot cheaper! )
Anyway, this engine made approx. 110kw at wheels with PULP. I dont know what comp. ratio it was, he didnt say. But there is no way that a 20 valve with A/M Computer and a port and polish will put out 120kw at the wheels. By the way ' SEEKS ' an engine that will go as well and probably better would be B16A VTEC. They are a killer motor! But ill stay with my 4AGE 16V turbo! It rocks!
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 15:38
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I'm sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. Where can I get some of that sh!t you're smoking?
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Home grow.... Anyway, Guy's I kid you not.... Don't believe me, how bout come to the Next Improved production race @ eastern creek, Oran or Wakefield? or for you 7M, when the next round of the national IP racing is up there next, head straight for Leanne Ferrier's RX7, the one wasting the rest of the field buddy... Speak to the Guys: Dave flood aka ex Dynotrak, Redline motorsport, and has been based at priemier auto down here for the last month, just before the last dyno day, that's him in the driver seat (see pic)
Dave loftus, the blue starlet, dyno day 3 on display, also for you young'ns, it was featured in a very early Zoom (something like issue 4 or 5). This was engine,
sorry only engine Pic this was his bog stocker 88kw version, as featured in Zoom, the 110kw was the one he ran at Phillip island last year and set class record, and the newy (150kw-170kw) was running at the begining of this year and a more wilder version he's developing is in the pipeline. Finally, Abes, the guy that built/building the high output versions and any many more winning race engines. they don't bite unless someone poke sticks? well how bout it? three of the best in the racing business, with over five years getting a 20V to that point.... And I can tell you not many have got 20V to this point! A 20V's are very new and require a very different amount of logic put into them. These guy's have seem to have figured a few things out, which other are still chasing and the results show.
Besides...http://www.toymods.org.au/records.html results are results, let see how it goes next time!
| Quote: |
nothing better than pullin away from a 20v when u only got 50kw
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sorry dude, that's torque not power in play there. I use to do that with a 7A! And my Rally version spits them out for dinner all the way to 200KPH!!
see Nark know's the jist:
| Quote: |
Traffic light GP:
GZE. 20V has trouble keeping the 16Vs off its tail in general day to day driving.
Track:
20V. Roles are reversed with the GZEs having trouble keeping the 16Vs off their tail.
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That's a perfect explaination of torque vs power! I think you've got that saved somewhere by now
| Quote: |
You do know a stock WRX has about 98AWKW don't you? Werent you the one that the dyno operaters scratched there heads about?
Don't be a dyno queen and quote stupid dyno numbers that are just in plan error, go run down the qtr and show us the MPH.
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Sorry to inform you there, BUT NO I WASN'T THERE! I stopped over to see Dave about something else when he told me the results 2 days later!! and many things do play a role in bloody 1/4 times, (let's talk track time's? that my goal!) one thing I'd like to know, how much torque did the dam thing have? bet you F/A which = poor 1/4 times. Stock WRX 98 KW 230NM vs 120Kw 100NM, I know straight away who'll win.... both car weigh about the same.
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gee now its driberling isnt it TRD S Africa spent heaps on both the 20v engines and could only get 185 hp and that was the blacktop 1 and thats at the fly wheel and its not kws
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If that's the RSi rally car, there aiming for a high torque and moderate power (185= 138kw), so you can't have both, but then again, the B/T head design and internals are nowhere as good as the S/T, So that's why I've decided to use the B/T throttle, flywheel and crank, with S/T head, and A/M rods and pistons. So if I end up that power and 250+nm I'd be wrapped!
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my mates black top makes 87 kws at the back wheels so thats about right
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That's about right with a stock ECU. But I can confirm that til the G/friends Bitsa is in and running, but if 87Kw is true, I'd expect less as Abe has stolen all the goodies for my engine 
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Hey Guys, I just thought id put in my 2 cents worth. Last year I bought a Silver Top 20 Valve engine from a bloke who raced dirt buggies. He also had another silver top 20 valve which he had taken out the buggy there.It had spun a bearing in the motor but told me that this had Ross forged pistons(BIG DOLLARS!), port & polished head and port matched throttle bodies and 304 degree TRD cams.
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Should of done his research, Abe's running that kind of gear in my newy,(about $4K worth) but 304 cams are way to big for the application I have in mind (Rally), question, did he have the VVT-i running? would've like to known the C/R....
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 23:25
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Wastegate is pretty much on the money there except :
Power is a product of revs and torque, not a derivative (sorry to nitpick) and most 1.6's have more like 145-155 Nm of torque and variable cam engines tend to have slightly more. The factory figure is something like 160Nm (this is probably a little optimistic). If we use a torque of 155Nm we get 9672.5 rpm to get 157Kw, a little more believable but still very high. Also, it is very hard to dramatically increase the torque of an engine. Basically to get more power you just move the torque band to a higher rev range (I'm ignoring turbos, capacity increases etc.).
The thing to remember is that petrol only puts out a certain amount of energy (about 45 Megajoules/kg), and since power = energy/time and we can't control time we just have to burn more petrol and release more energy. How do we burn more petrol in the same amount of time? Rev harder, or force it in with a turbo, or make the cylinders bigger.
Also remember that there is a theoretical maximum efficiency of an I.C. engine called the Carnot Efficiency, and it is impossible to exceed this.
So hands up who wants to do the sums on this 120Kw @ the wheels 20V, and see what its efficiency is?
[Updated on: Tue, 29 July 2003 23:28]
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 23:26
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so he has 110 kws and is doing 1.54 at the island in a starlet .ok my mates ke25 with stock blacktop (87 kws )is doing 1.54 at the island also and its rwd so he is 23 kws less ,hey im not bitching here either just my 2 cents
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Tue, 29 July 2003 23:41
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seadog: Ta Yeah I only grabed 130nm as a guess but then I don't think it would have even that much torque at that RPM anyway. It would be a VERY well engineered race car engine to have the 150 odd nm all though out the rev range.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Wed, 30 July 2003 04:07
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Riighht.. You seem to think that power and torque are totally different things.
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here we go again assuming...... Did I say this??? NO I DIDN'T
Now before we start assuming again.....| Quote: |
Torque (Nm) = (Power X 9551) / Speed
HP = (130 Nm x XXXX rpm) / 9551 = 157 kw
so;
RPM = (157 kw x 9551) / 130Nm = 11534 rpm
Stock huh?
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thanks for the maths lesson, NOW GIVE IT TO ME IN PURE MATHS FORM! This is a rough estimation, not a direct co-relation, Yes, the relationship, between is
rev* torque = power
Now what is torque?
Force*distance, distance is constant, so increase the comp, which increases the force, and then this force is dependent on a multitude of variables! ie flame propagation, hot/cold spots, combustion chamber, shape, rough and smoothness, airflow... list goes on there!
how bout Revs?
how do you get to that?
Moment of Inertia, Centripetal to linear conversions, and all this then has to be converted to the stresses and strain with in the moving inertial time frame, and then look at this in 3D, and add that in. mate the conversion ain't as simple as that crap! good indication, but not 100% CORRECT! The actually calcution works out to be close to 10 pages full of derivatives, transforms and other stuff average people would fall apart after five minutes . Also, while we're at it lets talk gear Maths on top of that, through the Gearbox (I haven't personally worked that out yet).... It's nice to talk power AT THE WHEELS, but Very rarely do I hear of Torque!
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So hands up who wants to do the sums on this 120Kw @ the wheels 20V, and see what its efficiency is?
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see above... I did this as an exercise while studying, and that was for a 2 valved, theoretical engine.
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so he has 110 kws and is doing 1.54 at the island in a starlet .ok my mates ke25 with stock blacktop (87 kws )is doing 1.54 at the island also and its rwd so he is 23 kws less ,hey im not bitching here either just my 2 cents
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I'll have to take that back, that was his 88Kw version, anyhow, I think we discussed this in an earlier forum, and dave himself actually got involved in that one! and made many think otherwise.
Anyway guy's believe it or not, I don't really care anymore!!
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Wed, 30 July 2003 07:31
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if u take alook at the graph of its run you will see it go straigt up the page at a 45deg angle and it would have keeped going if he reved it past sixandahalfgrand
it also took about 40sec to do a power run
the dyno operator said it wasnt right and i dont think u will find any board members agreeing with the figure
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Wed, 30 July 2003 13:33
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Formula Atlantic 20V for me please
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how much better is the 20v blacktp than the 20v silvertop?
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Thu, 31 July 2003 03:04
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I'll mate it simple for you.
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I'll make it simpler, get in your car and come down here to Windsor, and have a look for yourself! because being in Brisane, you wouldn't have a clue, who,what or anything on what I'm talking about.... Real HP, in real RACE CARS, not street things with easy HP strapped on! Real budgets, Real qualified mechanics with fuckin' engineering degrees, what more Real proof! good go play in the mud with your tonka toys, At least I have a real car to do that!!
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