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Registered:
December 2002
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Turbo in a bottle?
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Tue, 28 January 2003 20:42
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| _ELiTeHaYDeN_ wrote on Tues, 28 January 2003 07:42 |
The other thing to possibly try/investigate, is a tank of air that you could inject into your exhaust system, just before the turbo, that will spool it up, and a air compressor in your boot to fill the bottle back up again
Just a thought. The other thing i was thinking was a the same thing, but injecting the air into your intake manifold at say, 10psi ... 10psi turbo in a bottle.
Maybe i'll start a new topic for this.
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so here it is, comments???
[Updated on: Tue, 28 January 2003 20:46]
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Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Tue, 28 January 2003 21:25
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Youd probably be better off using nitrous.
You'll find that you need a shite load of air to sustain the 10psi!
Apart from that you'd need some sort of inlet valve so the extra pressure doesnt just vent to air via your air cleaner.
CamZH
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Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Tue, 28 January 2003 22:40
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just think how much air an engine needs... say you've got a 2L engine, thats just under 2L of air (maybe 4-5 times as much air if its compressed, eg turbo) per revolution of the engine, you want this to work around 4000rpm, thats 133L of air per second, or over 500L for a turbo. i don't think a tank of air that big would fit under the bonnet, even compressed! interesting idea, but you need airflow not just air mass.
on the topic a mate has an idea of using an LPG line as a cheap NOS substitute.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Tue, 28 January 2003 22:58
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I fail to see how LPG can act as a substitute for nitrous? The former is a fuel, the latter is an oxidising agent... totally different things!
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Wed, 29 January 2003 06:42
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Did you guys read the post?
He is talking about injecting high pressure air into the exst manifold or into the turbo housing itself to aid in spool up.
Same thing to a lesser extent can be done by injecting well atomised water into the exst manifold.
No reason why it couldnt be done using highly compressed air... just havnt heard of anyone doing it yet.
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Registered:
December 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Wed, 29 January 2003 11:22
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Hmmm. Getting enough compressed air into the exhaust to actually make a difference to spool-up would require an air tank bigger than the car. A nice idea, but not very practical.
FWIW, some guy in the US experimented with something similar on his drag car in the 80's (I think). Top fuel drag cars have massive superchargers which require upwards of 1000hp to turn, so his idea was to let a huge tank of compressed air do the job instead. To cut a long story short, the engine was much more powerful with no supercharger to drive, but this was offset by the extra weight of the air tank and the car was slower overall. Apparently the tank was so big they had to fill it up overnight to do a single run down the quarter mile!
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Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Wed, 29 January 2003 11:33
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It shouldnt take anymore than the equivilent shot of nos to get the turbo spinning, and u are talking about massive superchargers, requiring in excess of 1000hp to turn them, we're talking about standard car turbo's.. i'd say a tank the equivilent size of a NOS tank should give you a few spool ups, its deffinatly going to help, DEFFINATLY going to help, just remeber the quicker the turbo spools up the more exhaust gases are going to flow anyways, because of the boost, so the shot of air may just be enough to get that baby spinning sufficently to generate boost, once it generates boost ur away, once ur at 1psi or so, its going to rise very quick, as the engine exhaust takes over.
Its something im deffinatly going to try, and as I can see its going to be very effective..spinning a turbo turbine, doesnt take all that much air/pressure, we arnt talking about getting it spinning at full speed, just fast enough for the engine to take over basically, and get the boost much quicker.
Anyone know how much exhaust pressure it takes to open/trigger a standard wastegate?
[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2003 11:36]
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Wed, 29 January 2003 13:43
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Sorry, but a bottle of compressed air won't flow a fraction of the CFM generated by the engine even at idle. Nitrous oxide is completely different; it allows the engine to burn a lot more fuel, thus generating a much higher volume of exhaust gas. It's this exhaust gas which spools the turbo quicker, not the nitrous itself.
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Wed, 29 January 2003 16:17
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But surely its not about the flow... get enough high pressure air on to the turbine blades, and itll spin.
Drill a hole in the exst turbine housing a weld in a air nozzle that points in the direction of of turbine rotation.
Even with a small amount of pressure i think you would at least be able to get 1000 RPM lower spool times than normal.
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Registered:
December 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Wed, 29 January 2003 23:46
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Still won't work. A turbine works on the principle of pressure differential, ie the pressure on the inlet side must be higher than the outlet side. You can have a hose with 50psi of compressed air in it, but as soon as it's released into the exhaust manifold, that pressure will drop to almost zero as it's applied to a much greater surface area. Like I said above, a tank of compressed air simply won't flow enough CFM to make a difference.
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Registered:
December 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 05:41
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i dont really have a clue what will happen. give it a go anyway. just make sure you can replace the turbo or manifold if you drill it and it doesnt work.
post results please.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 05:52
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Err, if you plumbed a compressed air tank to an exhaust manifold, wouldn't you be risking a bit of an, um, explosion?
Or am I not seeng this right?
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Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 06:40
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explosion, hmmm, i dont think so... Air is hardly a explosive gas, but when compress it can be, but using 1 way valves and arrestors(as all tanks have) its as safe as houses, and we are talkinga bout the air we breath, not a tank full of 100% oxygen, u inject even the slightest bit of pure oxygen into ur intake manifold, and u will sure get and explosion 
[Updated on: Thu, 30 January 2003 06:46]
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 06:41
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Probably not an explosion as such, but you'd get lots of popping and farting and whatnot out the tailpipe... the oxygen sensor readings would also get confused with all that extra air in the exhaust, probably causing it to run extra rich. Hmmm, unburnt fuel + compressed air + heat in the exhaust manifold could have interesting consequences... like a dead turbo!
I agree, give it a try and see what happens. I don't have to pay for the repairs. 
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Registered:
December 2002
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 10:18
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By all means give it a go - the idea here is that by having a tank with 100psi of air on board, then feeding that through a tiny nozzle, the velocity will be high enough to get a bit of action from the turbo - try getting a compressor and holding the air nozzle next to the turbine wheel, it will spin the turbo somewhat, whether it's enough to do anything is debatable, but hey Another way of doing it is anti lag of course 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 10:46
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This is great, people trying to help turbo lag and low down boost.
Two words "AFTER BURNER" put a spark plug in the exhaust pipe instead and leave it on. Any unburnt fuel will be burnt and that will surely expand and make the turbo spool up faster.
Of course it'll probably kill your turbo. But its an idea.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Thu, 30 January 2003 23:10
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 one word... TWINCHARGE.....
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 00:21
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| _ELiTeHaYDeN_ wrote on Thu, 30 January 2003 16:49 |
Theres no oxygen sensors on the turbo input side of the exhaust system is there, let alone a oxygen sensor in there at all?
And there should be no problems at all with air being in the exhaust system, air by its self, dudnt burn, or else we'd be living in hell
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There is definitely an oxygen sensor somewhere if you're using a half modern engine, and it doesn't really matter which side of the turbo it's on, the air you're pumping into the exhaust system will still screw up the readings!
Air doesn't burn, but unburnt fuel in the exhaust does and will if you're feeding it compressed air!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 00:58
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I was looking under my bonnet one day and found that my oxygen sensor wasn't plugged in. There was a male and a female plug next to each other, but not connected. So I plugged it in, but noticed no change at all.
Weird man.
I suggest unplugging the sensor and doing a test, if the car still drives the same, then its not going to make a difference pumping exra air in. What you might find is that the sensor could be a good hole to plug the air compressor nozzle hose thing into. That is if its in front of the turbo - mine wasn't, it was in the dump pipe, just after the turbo.
You might be able to screw a spark plug into the sensor hole, cheap and very quick afterburner. And before anyone tells me I don't know what an afterburner does - yes I'm aware that afterburners don't ignite in the exhaust, they actually squirt a crapload of fuel in and the fuel ignites because its so hot, and theres probably extra sparks in there etc.
Would be interesting trying different things in front of the turbo - water fogger nozzle, compressed air, spark, fuel. And see if any work.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 01:05
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now you guy's are getting just plain scary... 
you need your 02 sensor for your ECU to figure out your air/fuel mix to work your engine correctly...
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 01:14
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Doesn't the ECU save the figure of air/fuel/inlet temp into a map or grid (or some 3d thingmybob).
exhaust sensors you definately need when tuning (wide band even better). But once all that data is saved it shouldn't need all the sensors.
Like algebra (very simplifed I know)
A x B = C
saying A is air, B is Fuel and C is exhaust sensor reading (air/fuel ratio).
If you KNOW that when you put in 10 parts air and 2 parts fuel you get 20 at the end.
so when your AFM is telling you theres 10 parts of air, the computer squirts in 2 parts of fuel.
Bottom line is: my car ran without the oxygen sensor in the exhaust.
Please if someone has a running car they would like to make an example of, pull the plug off the sensor (my plug was after about a half metre heat resistant leader line) and see if the car still runs.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 01:34
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Do you really think factory engines would be fitted with a sensor that's never used?? 
The oxygen sensor is used in cruise conditions to keep the fuel mixtures as lean as possible for economy and emissions reasons. It's known as "closed loop mode" when the O2 sensor is being used.
An engine will certainly run without the O2 sensor connected; the ECU will simply switch to "open loop mode" which means it relies on its internal fuel maps to determine fuel mixtures. These are generally set pretty rich, so your fuel economy suffers as a result.
So, like I was saying before: rich fuel mixture + compressed air + heat = burning. Bye bye turbo!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Oyster bay NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 02:07
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| Quote: |
I run a system on an turbo open wheeled race car.
The blow off valve dumped into the exhaust manifold before the turbo and there was a small spark plug in there to fire the rich fuel mix from the engine, run like on of these turbine units people make, at idle had 5psi boost, no lag and shoot great flames out the exhaust on gear change (upto 6 foot long).
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that sounds really wild...
lets just hope no-one get's the idea to put it on their street car.....
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 02:31
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Really? Thats mad!
There you go, don't pump in extra air, IGNITE IT!
Need to put in a microswitch to stop the spark when the wastegate kicks in (don't need it after that point).
Reduced turbo life, but boost on idle!
Norbie, your right with your closed/open loop writings, I remember somone saying something about these when I said it wasn't plugged in. Richer fuel (as not in economy mode) and an ignitor means afterburner!
I wanna hear about someone trying this. I've heard of people putting a spark plug in the exhaust system so they could spout flames with a button, but having it before a turbo sounds ... dangerous/crazy/great!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 02:56
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Guys,
Here's my idea or input into this argument.
WARNING This is pure fantasy 
For the purpose of my example lets talk 1JZ.
Get a turbo with a massive compessor housing, say T88 size or something similar.
Get a centrifugal supercharger, without the compressor housing.
Fit the turbo as per usual, exhaust manifold etc. But mount the turbo backwards (exhaust side at the front of the car).
Fit the supercharger with out the compressor housing so that the shaft from the turbo lines up with the shaft from s/c.
Then, and this is the fantasy bit.
Make a common shaft for the s/c, turbo exhaust wheel and compressos wheel. Make some sort of actuator or clutch for the shaft for that enables the s/c to spin the compressor when its making boost and the exhaust wheel of the turbo to spin the compressor in its efficiency!!!!
That way you can gear the s/c to produce boost very low down and it does matter if it runs out of puff at 3500rpm and the same for the turbo in reverse, you can use a massive compressor that produces boost from 4000rpm up wards.
This is obviously exactly the same as any twin charge setup except I am thinking that it should all be done in one unit, using the same compressor wheel and housing.
This is just a stupid idea so dont shoot me down in flames about details. I havent thought of them!
Just my 2c worth.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 03:06
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Crostek: a more advanced version of the system you describe is employed by WRC cars (anti-lag). It's very effective, but it greatly reduces the life expectancy of the turbo and obviously it isn't legal on the street. A good idea for cashed-up WRC teams who can afford to replace turbos on a regular basis, but not so good for the rest of us!
1JZMX83: Note that a typical automotive turbocharger may reach speeds of up to 100,000rpm while a centrifugal SC is designed to spin at a fraction of that speed. Combining the two isn't going to work I'm afraid.
I remember reading about a similar thing not long ago, where a small high-rpm electric motor was employed to spin the shaft of a turbo as a form of anti-lag. Some major turbo manufacturer was developing it, possibly Garret? The details escape me, but I recall they were having problems with the heat cooking the electric motor.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 03:25
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lol imagine shooting blasts of highly compresed air at the 1j turbos  uumm bang!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 03:25
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Damn,
The Devils in the Detail, as they say.
One question though. How does a centrifugal s/c make useful boost if it doesnt spin the shaft anywhere near as fast? Cant those s/c produce upto 1-2 bar boost using a turbo compessor housing?
If the electrical motor thing could be shielded from the heat you could put it between the two turbo housings and just run a long shaft.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 04:53
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Take a look at the impeller on a centrifugal SC one day - it's MUCH bigger than any turbo impeller, hence its lower speed. An impeller can be designed to work efficiently at practically any rpm.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 11:57
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ok here we go, get an injector, mount it in your exhaust just before the turbo, set up a simple circuit with a micro switch so when at idle it injects fuel into the exhaust which ignites due to the heat and will make your turbo spool up much quicker although in the long run you will have to re build or get a new turbo all the time
also forget the compressed air, to get any sort of benifet you will first of all need to run a pipe from you tank in the back to the exhaust manifold and that pipe will have to at least be the same size as the exhaust to be able to get enough air flow through it to create any benifit what so ever.
to get any benifit you will need to release about the same amount of air thats in a car tyre into the exhaust within 1 second, now thats a lot of air you have to dirt of all try and get to the front of the car and be able to refil constantly,
also to have a tank big enough to hold the amount of air you would need would weigh a more then the extra power you will get out of the car so it wouldn't make any difference at all.
also look at a air compressor, thats a big motor running of 240V and it takes a long time for it to charge its tanks,
these ideas are pointless, if they were effective you would see them in race cars, the only ones you see in race cars to be more precise "rally cars" (due to the fact they are on and off the gas all the time) the most effect way to keep the turbo spooling up is by injecting fuel vapour into the exhaust manifold, or causing the engine to misfire on idle so it gets unburnt fuel vapour going into the exhaust and exploding in the turbo, thats the only way your going to get it to spool up quicker but i hope you have a few turbo's in your shed to replace them as they keep getting blown over time.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Fri, 31 January 2003 18:51
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| GIN51E wrote on Fri, 31 January 2003 22:57 |
ok here we go, get an injector, mount it in your exhaust just before the turbo,
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Don't forget to plumb in the fire extinguisher while you're in there...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 09:57
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your not pumping tones of fuel in just a slight mist to keep the turbo spooling up, thats why you hear that tweating noise from the World Rally Cars and the flames and backfires everytime they get off the gas.
if you want to avoid the turbo lag then get a supercharger
otherwise get the revs up high before you take off so the turbo has time to spool up or if your driving and the revs are low just either drop down a gear to get the revs up higher so the turbo boosts up or put the clutch in for a secod floor it then drop the clutch.
but turbo lag is good, goes from a N/A engine to a turbo engine with a big kick
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 11:13
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Another couple of things to throw into the bag along with anti lag: sequential turbos, and variable turbine nozzles
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 13:52
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I say bollocks to turbo lag. If you're off boost, that just means you were in the wrong gear to begin with!
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Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 14:31
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Thanks for the input everyone, much appreciated.
Was just trying to find a easish way to reduce the turbo lag on the ol 3t-gteu and ct20 turbo..ct26 = more boost/lower temp .. but same amount of lag, not REALLY worth it..how the hell do these other cars aroundd devolep boost at 1500rpm? ive seen mazda familers with stock turbo's etc, devolop boost starting at 2000rpm quite happily .. and a gteu + ct20 would probebly be left in the dust by the familer? power/weight ratio
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 23:02
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lag?? i never think or call it lag, i just refer to it as 'when i'm off boost' ....
my car feels not to bad before i spool-up anyway. but boost it better..
i will be getting a gt-25 soon to upgrade the t-25, it should spool up around the 1700rpm mark instead of the 3000rpm i get now.. woohooooooooo.... and produce a lot more power.
i tink it's the ball/roller bearing turbos that you are seeing _ELiTeHaYDeN_ that are spooling up early...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Turbo in a bottle?
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Tue, 04 February 2003 08:17
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depends on the turbo, often cars which have a small turbo go on boost much earlier but when you bolt a big turbo on to get heaps of power you often find it doesn't get on to boost until the revs are up high, all comes down to turbo design or more important the turbo turbines that determine how much power it will make and the speed of which it hits boost,
the Subaru B4 is a twin turbo but they are connected in series so at low revs the exhaust goes through a turbo which boosts up quickly which is good for low revs then as the revs pick up it then by-passes the first turbo and then goes through the second turbo which is set up for high revs and creates more power higher in the rev range compared to the first turbo.
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