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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Laying engine forward?
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Fri, 14 February 2003 15:28
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Hi to all,
Have heard plenty about the 4A Toy engines in both 16 & 20v and supercharged mode. I'm in the process of trying to see if one of these engines (and FWD 5 speed) can be fitted to a Citroen.
Does anyone know if it's possible to lay one of these engines forward by as much as 60 degrees? Apart from the need to fabricate a sump and ensure the oil pickup for the pump is ok can anyone see any potential problems?
Cheers and thanks for any input,
Bing.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Fri, 14 February 2003 19:35
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The first problem would be which way are you intending to lay it?..a common problem with the 4A is the oil drain from the head, if you have to lean the engine at all Id be favouring the drain side down. or really youd be better off just running a drysump to fix the whole problem in one hit.
As for 60 degrees Im not sure if the engine would like that, as it is the pistons wear the bores in one spot with the slight factory lean in the FWD's. not only that but lubricating the high side cam effectively could also be an issue?
The only other major issue I could think of is the cooling system..if youre going to run the 4A factory setup you may get an air pocket at the highest point that may be hard to get rid of.
Also just had a thought about the engine mounts, the 4A's seem to dislike any sort of jarring to the block aprticularly the FWD setup, often a slight front end prang will crack the block, so maybe the excessive lay over may not be so good for block integrity as well.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Sat, 15 February 2003 05:18
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Michael,
Thanks for your reply, much apreciated. Can see the imediate advantages of a dry sump set up. Guess I also need to take a good look inside one of these engines and study the pressure/return layout of it's lubrication system.
Do the stock pistons (FWD) have a gudgon pin offset to the front or rear?
Cheers,
Chris.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Sat, 15 February 2003 10:51
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Im not sure what you mean by the gudgeon being offset??? All the A series gudgeons are dead centre in the piston, there are however two different gudgeon sizes...18mm and 20mm depending on the era of the engine
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Sat, 15 February 2003 13:09
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Michael,
You've answered my question, thanks. Was trying to find out if there was an offset in the pistons as per VW, Subaru etc.
Cheers,
Chris.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Sun, 16 February 2003 16:08
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Grega,
It's a Citroen GS 1977 Palas. Curently running a stock 1220 engine with a 82 GSA 5 speed transaxel - slow but interesting. Have seen a 12A conversion mated up to the 4 speed transaxel which worked quite well, sort of a GS Birotor copy (1973 twin rotor model that they only made 800 examples of)
Cheers,
Chris.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Sun, 16 February 2003 21:11
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yep, know the GS quite well. my outlaws are citroen folk - they used to have a BX 19 and a D Super5 (with the 2.1 litre) but now are just restoring the D.
not knowing much about the GS but does the flywheel face the front of the car like the D and have inboard discs ect? if so you'll have a fair bit of work ahead..
ah yes the bi-rotor. now thats rare - like the maserati v6 SM - well, they're rare over here anyways...
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Mon, 17 February 2003 01:30
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The GS transaxel is similar to the D series in that it is front wheel drive and has inboard discs but is to the rear of the engine where as the D's transaxel is forward of the engine. Have blown up two of these boxes so far, their synchro rings are pretty much crap and the whole box is quite light in construction. Really want to get into a modern engine/box so that I can enjoy the ride and unreal handling of the GS.
Cheers,
Chris.
PS. have a SM V6 engine to go into a 64 Citroen ID19 but think this may be a project too far:)
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Location:
GoldCoast/Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Mon, 17 February 2003 02:08
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Grega..... would your OUTLAWS as you call them  ,
by any chance be the GRATTON-WILSONs????
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Mon, 17 February 2003 06:28
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nah speedcore, i'm down here in VIC dude...
an SM v6 into a single headlight D would be way cool bing!
i know what you mean about the boxesi don't think the D's boxes are much better....the outlaws D has had the synchros on 2nd replaced and the gearbox partially rebuilt - it was knackered he used to drive from 1st to 3rd and miss second.
the brakes are something else - very awesome.
i'm not really up with citroens, but, i didn't think the GS had the hydro-pneumatic suspension
by the way if you need LHM FYi the outlaws distribute it...
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Mon, 17 February 2003 06:46
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Dry sumping = expensive doesn't it?
Has anyone found an electric oil pump to use for this purpose as the driven ones are preposterously priced ($3000 + plumbing)
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Mon, 17 February 2003 15:02
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Grega,
Oooooh, LHM - now your talking. Could you email me their contact address? (bing@anglers.com.au)
The GS has the full hydro suspension but with only three ride height settings. I've tuned the GS suspension a little by grafting on a Citroen CX (2mm thicker) torsion bar and re valving a pair of early (ID19) nitrogen spheres to suite. The next thing to try is put an extra acumilator sphere into the system and reduce the nitrogen in the front spheres along with a solinoid to switch in the extra sphere. This should give two ride quality settings all going well, one firm and one for soaking up the bumps.
The ID19 is an X rally car that I'm putting back to road use (class winner in the 95 round Aus trial - which just means it can't be broken by rough roads and that it's still really slow). Found a little info online about two factory prototypes from 1965 that had a Mas V6 engine and that really got me interested. Have heard one running in a rally SM and they sound way cool. The factory proto cars were used to test a mechanicaly activated version of their hydro anti roll system.
Aint those brakes something else? 62 bar of pressure to four discs on a 800kg car that squats when you jump on the picks:)
Cheers,
Chris.
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Laying engine forward?
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Mon, 17 February 2003 17:48
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you've got your work cut out for you mounting brakes on a Toyota FWD trans.
use ATF -Ford-Dexron-whatever. the Total LHM was really destroying spheres in the S Florida heat in 1972,
besides the LHM being foolishly expensive, though it looks pretty.
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