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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 01:18
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hey all, I really wanna get into Rallying with a freind. But i have no idea where to start.
The Car we are thinking of.
Toyota Corolla KE70
4age
I need to know where to start.. What do we need? is there a guidelines website? i had a look on the cams website and couldnt find shit.
Also is anyone in a club? That is amature and goes rallying regulary?
Any help somone can offer would be appritiated.
Its so difficult to find any info its almost like no one wants you to rally 
thanks,
Lyle
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 01:42
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First thing to do is get a CAMS Manual. Read. (the CAMS web site is crap for information!)
Make sure you have read the regs on what you can do to a car, eg what engine you can use, before setting your ideas in stone! Many a good idea has be shot before it got off the ground cause the regs wont allow a certain engine in a certain car.
If you have any questions, drop me a line at
craiga@staff.airnet.com.au
I have my CAMS manual with me, so if you have any specific questions, left me know.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 02:02
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I think you will find that there was no 4AGE KE70 so youll have issues there for starters.
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I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 04:15
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Hi Lyle
Im probably classed as an amature that rallies regularly
(i only started last year). I am also a member of North shore sporting car club (as well at Toymods) and would be glad to help.
I know the rules fairly well, and would be glad to help out in what you can and cant do, and how to auctually start Rallying.
IRALLY is correct, you only run engines that were homologated with that particular car. but remember in rallying HP isnt that important it helps but your better off spending money making the car stop and handle better as thats were most time is made up.
Cheers
Ben
AE86 Trueno 4AGE (i like dirt)
prorally@tpg.com.au
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I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Some more info..
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Wed, 15 May 2002 05:00
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Well, i emailed my mate who was able to give the following info.
Hi,
First before the car, he needs to obtain a licence and join a CAMS
affiliated car club...like yourself!
Once he has done this he will receive a CAMS manual which has all the
guidelines and regulations that he needs for each level of competition.
Car clubs can help out a lot! That would be the first thing that I
did...join one, then ask questions.
He can (if the car is roadworthy) probably start competing in Motorkhanas
and Khanacrosses without too many changes to the car.
All the rest are pretty well outlined and mainly safety orientated such
roll cage specs, seats, harnesses, helmets, fire extinguishers, first aid
kits, triangles. Rallying puts a lot of stress on the seams and joints on
cars, so its essential that these are strengthened. Then there's extras
such as lights, sump guards, mud flaps (compulsory) haldas, intercoms,
tyres, map lights, gauges etc. After all this the car should be inspected
by a CAMS scrutineer to ensure that it would pass at an event. Everything
else are nice things, such as engine performance, exhausts, and comforts
inside a car ,such as the way things are positioned and mounted.
This is a rough list. As I said once he has joined a car club, the members
can usually provide a lot of valuable hints.
It also depends on what level of rallying, the further up you go, the more
rules there are.
Hope this helps.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Some more info..
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Wed, 15 May 2002 06:05
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Far out.. Thanks guys for all the help and advice.. Ill be contacting most of you for some more help 
Ar... IRA11Y... I meant, put the 4age into a ke70 shell?? I know there is no Ge in a Ke70... hmmm... "K"e70
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Some more info..
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Wed, 15 May 2002 06:19
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Corvid I know what you meant, but the problem you will face is homologating the car with a 4AGE in it, basically if it never came to austfalia  as manufacturer spec with the GE then you wont pass homologation with it in. Trust me there wasnt one introduced with a 4AGE...Ive allready checked , the only option you have is to heavily modify a K series engine...which from what Ive heard gives some reasonable HP if enough money is spent on it.
The closest you will come to a GE is to buy an AE71 shell which runs a 4AC from the factory...actually I think youd get more power out of a C than the 4K with less work but thats another story thats been argued on another day 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 06:25
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Corvid, what IRA11Y is saying is that putting a 4AGE into a KE70 is probably illegal (according to the CAMS legislation) or will put you in an extremely uncompetitive class.
Before you get crazy on that KE70, check the rules and see what is permitted. It would be terrible to build this great little car only to find you can't race it.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Something to watch for
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Wed, 15 May 2002 06:26
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Just while Im thinking of it, when you seam (or stitch) weld the chasis pay carefull attention to the chasis rails where the front and mid section meet....they tend to come apart there as the factory welds were really crappy to start with and after a couple of rounds the welds will fail....what you can do to stiffen it right up is stich weld normally then run a narrow plate the width of the rail about 4cm either side of the seam point (in other words an 8cm strip) and weld it at the ends only so theres still plenty of twist but no stretch which IMHO is what i think breaks that particular weld point.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 06:38
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My post looks silly in the face of what you have only just said!! Didn't mean to repeat what you said.
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Something to watch for
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Wed, 15 May 2002 12:01
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CAMS regs dont allow u to strengthen chassis on production rally cars:(
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Wed, 15 May 2002 12:43
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I think you will find that there was no 4AGE KE70 so youll have issues there for starters.
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True, unless you can prove otherwise ie I proveed the RA40 had the 18RC,18RG, 20RC and 22RC fitted, gaining a concession to the rule and allowing the 22RC to be fitted.... But the 18RG was the final choice.
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I've actually just sat (last week in fact) the CAMS Rally Lecture & written test. All I've gotta do now is join a CAMS affiliated club
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Any CAMS Club will do... check the website http://www.cams.com.au for a list
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(will be joining the North Shore Sporting Car Club) and pay a bucketload of money to CAMS. This will let me enter into events as a navigator, and once i've been observed competing in 2 khanacross events, will be able to apply for a rally driver's licence
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The new rules suck, lucky I only had the dumb lecture to attend which I had a decent sleep through. It's just to cover their (CAMS) arses in compo claims.
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. but remember in rallying HP isnt that important it helps but your better off spending money making the car stop and handle better as thats were most time is made up.
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That's a start, Torque is what counts in rallying, not top speed (HP). Handle, braking, then torque, This is how to build a good rally car. Torque is what pulls you out of corners quicker and get you to topspeed, rallying is mostly short straights before a heap of corners. The only rally's I've competed on where higher topspeeds have won were Bega and Tumut, with very very long straight stages with hardly any turns.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Thu, 16 May 2002 00:06
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If you make your strengthening "appear factory" then most scruiteneers wont even see the "adjustment" "uptosomething" same with springs and rates ..I have seen where a standard spring has been "altered" to be stiffer yet it still has the same diameter and turns and length....I dont know how they did it but there was a protest after the race and they still passed the final scruitineering???? wish I knew how they did it 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Thu, 16 May 2002 00:32
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Were in the CAMS manual does it say you cant strengthen the Chassis on PRC cars ??
I looked quickly but could not find ?
If this was the case nearly all of the cars that compete would get done as they are nearly all seam welded.
Cheers
Ben
AE86 Trueno 4AGE
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Something to watch for
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Thu, 16 May 2002 04:30
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| bmak wrote on Wed, 15 May 2002 10:01 PM |
CAMS regs dont allow u to strengthen chassis on production rally cars:(
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Last time I was involved with building a rally car, the rules were you couldn't gusset the chassis, but, you could plate the existing rails.
This was a few years ago though.
A carefully designed cage will take care of any problems like that though..
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Thu, 16 May 2002 10:32
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Last time I was involved with building a rally car, the rules were you couldn't gusset the chassis, but, you could plate the existing rails.
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Still can't. Has to follow the original shape and be in contact with the structure.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Fri, 17 May 2002 00:41
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from the Cams bible...
Group 3C - PRC Rally Cars
3.2
(ii) Addition of Material
Any addition or attaching of material or parts is forbidden unless specificly allowed by an Artical in these regulations. <sic>
Restoration of body shape and chassis geometry following accidental damage is permissable by the addition of the materials nessecary to effect the repairs (body filler, weld metal etc.)
<sic>
So, you can get away with seam welding with a bit of creative talking if nessecary, but addition of material purely to strengthen is not permited.
Craig.
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Fri, 17 May 2002 08:39
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The KE70 shape cars came with a 1600cc 2T-GEU as the good motor. This is in the TE70 4dr sedan "GT", in Japan. I have pictures. Also the coupe/ hardtop/ liftback versions of the same car came with a 2T-GEU. This is the TE72- TE71 Levin and Trueno cars. So you can definately use a 2T-G, no problems.
I'm sure you could race with a 4AGE, but it may not be in PRC class.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Mon, 20 May 2002 04:02
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The only RWD car that is worth putting a 4ag in is an ae86. Now don't get me wrong, I am definatly not a fan of Sprinters, but if you have your heart set on a 4ag, that would be the go. A 2tg would give you far better torque, but at the expense of handling, they are not light. The thing with sprinters for rally is that they are a little bit expensive to get parts for if you bend it. Guards and lights are getting a bit thin on the ground these days. If you were not entirely honest, you could make a 2t/3tg and nobody would be the wiser, short of x-raying the block, or filling the bores with oil. Good torque gains to be had by stroking too.
Be VERY careful with chassis mods, I got pinged for having triangulated the front rails on my pf60, they were deemed to be an illegal addition of material.
IRALLY, I have finally upgraded the injection, quad throttles and proramable injection. It now spins the rollers at a very tidy 107kw. Now all I have to do is get the power on the ground. Maybe some tubs and 9.5 inch tractor tyres!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Mon, 20 May 2002 05:57
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Hehe.. Im still here.. just been reading all the replies..
The 2tg is very interesting tho
I think that sounds like the go.. Although the only reason i said 4age is cause i have one spare..
Another thing.. Why is a 4age only good in a sprinter?
Isnt the AE71 a sprinter driveline? Ie.. Diff.. T50 etc.. 4ac..
i dont see the difference... They couldnt weigh THAT much more surely.. Thats a big call to say that about a 4age only into a sprinter in my opinion... Another reason id reather the 4a.. Parts are sooooo easy to come across.. The 2tg is getting a bit long and hard to find bits for.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Mon, 20 May 2002 07:30
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Reason for a 4AGE in a Sprinter only is because that's what's legal. Sprinters came out of the factory with 4AGE's.... 3A's and 4A's too, but most people (barring mad Kiwis...) would go for the extra power of the 4AGE (over the 3A/4A). To be truthful, both 4AGE Sprinters and 2TG Corollas have been pretty successful at club level here in Victoria (Murray Rogers in the Sprinter and Andrew Vibert in the Corolla), but only one seems to have been able to remain competitive at state championship level (Ari Vibert).
Personally, I would probably suggest a T/K-series Corolla with a 2TG. Reasons? Size, availability, (relative) cheaper cost, etc.
If you're just starting out, you will have accidents. Trust me. Think you won't? We'll see...
I know, for it has happened to me.... and it wasn't even on a rally.... one day I'll tell you all THAT story.... lol...
Course, you could always buy my RX2 coupe for $4k or $5K.... ready to go, discs all round, cage, lsd, big exhaust, etc etc....
Alex
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Mon, 20 May 2002 08:30
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where did all the quotes go and why is this thread suddenly so wide???????
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Mon, 20 May 2002 08:55
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| Quote: |
from the Cams bible...
Group 3C - PRC Rally Cars
3.2
(ii) Addition of Material
Any addition or attaching of material or parts is forbidden unless specificly allowed by an Artical in these regulations. <sic>
Restoration of body shape and chassis geometry following accidental damage is permissable by the addition of the materials nessecary to effect the repairs (body filler, weld metal etc.)
<sic>
So, you can get away with seam welding with a bit of creative talking if nessecary, but addition of material purely to strengthen is not permited.
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3.9 Bodywork and Chassis
This really tells what can and can't be done.
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: CAMS Affliated.. I wanna rally farkin!
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Mon, 20 May 2002 15:13
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Is it posiable to mod my car up to rally specs and keep it as my one and only daily driver? This is what I want to do.
I don't want to be that compeditive, just have fun and stay alive.
(KE55 coupe - 2TG)
The main issue is the roll cage I guess.
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This will let me enter into events as a navigator, and once i've been observed competing in 2 khanacross events, will be able to apply for a rally driver's licence.